Glenn wrote:You need to go back and read the discussions that have ensued on this thread already. There is only one witness who is on record as having backtracked and said that Spalding started writing for amusement, then altered his plans and started writing a history of the lost tribes. (And that was after he was presented the Oberlin manuscript and saw that it had nothing to do with the Book of Mormon.)
A comment Glenn. If MSCC was the only manuscript why was it in Matlida's possession unfinished up to the point when Josiah read it which was before Pittsburg and Spalding spent another 4 years writing. The MSCC in existence has the last page half way completed..so if he was still working on THAT manuscript why doesn't it show continued work on it after Conneaut..in line with 4 years of time to do so? Why would he drop it, but then keep the unfinished story, start a new one of the same story ..which would require using up expensive paper. That whole scenario makes no sense. It's understandable to keep an unfinished work in progress manuscript, but it's not understandable to keep an unfinished one...while starting up the same story on more paper..especially with him being so poor and paper being expensive.
Some note and quotes which are relevant to your comments and show them to be inaccurate.
Howe p 287 She (Spalding widow) states that Spalding had a great variety of manuscripts, and recollects that one was entitled the "Manuscript Found," but of its contents she has now no distinct knowledge.
Howe: p 288 “This old M. S. has been shown to several of the foregoing witnesses, who recognise it as Spalding's, he having told them that he had altered his first plan of writing, by going farther back with dates, and writing in the old scripture style, in order that it might appear more ancient. They say that it bears no resemblance to the "Manuscript Found."
Aron Wright: (Aug 1833) Spalding had many other manuscripts, which I expect to see when Smith translates his other plates.
(Dec 1833) to D P Hurlbut relative to Writings of S Spalding
Esq. SD Hurlbut is now at my store I have
603
examined the writings which he has obtained
from SD Spaldings widowe I recognize them to
be the writings handwriting of SD Spalding but not
the Manuscript I had refferance to in my statement
before alluded to as he informed me he wrote in the
first place he wrote for his own amusement and
then altered his plan and commenced writing a
history of the first Settlement of America the
particulars you will find in my testimony dated
Sept 18 August 1833-
WRITTEN ON THE BACK OF SPALDING’S “MANUSCRIPT STORY CONNEAUT
CREEK,” IN THE SAME HANDWRITING AS THE LETTER ABOVE (VERBATIM
TRANSCRIPTION):*
“The Writings of Solomon Spalding
“Proved by Aron Wright Oliver
Smith John N. Miller and others
“The testimonies of the above
Gentlemen are now in my
possession D P Hurlbut” /s/
John Miller: I was soon introduced to the manuscript of Spalding, and perused them as often as I had leisure. He had written two or three books or pamphlets on different subjects; but that which more particularly drew my attention, was one which he called the "Manuscript Found."
Note: Martha Spalding appears to have been exposed to his book before he left Conneaut 1812.
Note: John Spalding it appears was exposed in Pittsburg..he says 3 years after 1810 was when spalding informed him about writing a book. “In a few years he failed in business, and in the year 1809 removed
to Conneaut, in Ohio. The year following, I removed to Ohio, and found
him engaged in building a forge. I made him a visit in about three years
after, and found that he had failed, and was considerably involved in debt.
He then told me he had been writing a book, which he intended to have
printed, the avails of which he thought would enable him to pay all debts.”
Artemas Cunningham: Before showing me his manuscripts, he went into a verbal relation of its outlines, saying that it was a fabulous or romantic history of the first settlement of this country, and as it purported to have been a record found buried in the earth, or in a cave, he had adopted the ancient or scripture style of writing. He then presented his manuscripts, when we sat down and spent a good share of the night, in reading them, and conversing upon them. I well remember the name of Nephi, which appeared to be the principal hero of the story. The frequent repetition of the phrase, "I Nephi,"
McKee to Demin 1886: “But touching these I will give below his daughter's (Mrs. McKinstry's) recollections, recently narrated by her to me, which I think more full and explanatory than my own. This lady is still residing in Washington, D. C., with the family of her late son-in- law, Col. Seaton of the Census Bureau, in remarkably good health for a lady of her age. She corroborated her father's statement about his removal to Conneaut in 1809, his examining the Indian mounds &c., and distinctly recollected that he wrote two or more stories in support of the theory that the Indians of North America were lineal descendants of the Jews from Palestine. In the first of these he brought the Jews from Palestine to America via Italy during the reign of Constantine, and set forth that at Rome they engaged shipping to convey them to some place in Great Britain, but encountered stormy weather and were finally wrecked somewhere on the coast of New England. What became of the manuscript of this story she did not know with certainty but understood that it was published in some Eastern review or magazine.
This romance he afterwards abandoned and set about writing a more probable story founded on the history of the ten lost tribes of Israel.”
John and Martha Spalding appear to have been exposed in late 1812 to Spalding’s story. It looks like John went to Pittsburg Spalding lived there 1812-1814 and he appears based on his statement to have learned then that Spalding’s writings were intended for publishing. So both don’t appear to have been exposed to the earlier manuscript. Howe mentions Hurlbut showed MSCC to several witnesses who said Spalding went back in time and changed writing style to scriptural style. The witnesses shown MSCC were Aron Wright, Oliver Smith, John N. Miller ..according to what Hurlbut wrote on MSCC. so it is likely they are the ones Howe mentions as acknowledging Spalding going back in time and changing to scriptural style.
John Miller and Aron Wright in Aug 1833 statements before being shown MSCC mentioned Spalding wrote a number of manuscripts. Matida Spalding (widow) mentioned he wrote a number of manuscripts. The overall consensus is Spalding wrote more than one manuscript and on a similar theme.
Glenn wrote:“Secondly, he and Oliver Smith contradict each other because Oliver says that Solomon started writing his "Nephi and Lehi" story when he first came to the area. This gives him no chance to go back and rewrite that story. And Oliver is contradicted by Josiah Spalding and Matilda Spalding Davison who note that Solomon started writing the manuscript in 1812. “
MATILDA SPALDING DAVISON TO REV. DR. DAVID R. AUSTIN: c.1 MAR. 1839
(SIGNED)*
“At the time of our marriage
he resided in Cherry Valley, New York. From this place we removed
to New Salem, Ashtabula county, Ohio, sometimes called Conneaut, as it is
situated upon Conneaut creek. Shortly after our removal to this place, his
health sunk, and he was laid aside from active labors. In the town of New
Salem there are numerous mounds and forts, supposed by many to be the
dilapidated dwellings and fortifications of a race now extinct. These
ancient relics arrest the attention of the new settlers, and become objects of
research for the curious. Numerous implements were found, and other articles,
evincing great skill in the arts. Mr. Spalding being an educated man
and passionately fond of history, took a lively interest in these developments
of antiquity, and in order to beguile the hours of retirement and furnish employment for his lively imagination, he conceived the idea of
giving a historical sketch of this long lost race.”
So Glenn, Matilda does not say he started writing in 1812 ...but rather according to her shortly after his arrival in Conneaut he started..which was 1809.
Josiah was only visiting so he wouldn’t know when spalding started. Given that he appears to be familiar with the MSCC unfinished & not MF…there could be a number of explanations. Perhaps Spalding was writing MF while Josiah was reading MSCC..and with a 90 year old memory to him perhaps spalding while writing MF appeared to be continuuing to work on MSCC the one he was reading. He doesn't mention any discussions so his memory seems to be a function of reading, as opposed to listening or discussing with Spalding. In any event Josiah’s statement is supportive of the S/R theory as he recalls Matilida telling him Spalding continued writing but as well she told him told him about Rigdon in Pittsburg. There is no reason for her to lie to him. Josiah writes: “Likewise she informed me that soon after they arrived at Pittsburg a man followed them, I do not recollect his name, but he was afterwards known to be a leading Mormon. He got into the employment of a printer, and he told the printer about my brother's composition. The printer called and requested the privilege of taking it home to read. He, my brother, let him take it; he kept it some time, and then he urged him, my brother, to let him print it. He, my brother, would not consent, but took it back, and she said that she brought it to New York and put it into a chest where she lived. “ And we know from Matilda’s statement as well as McKee that was Rigdon.
MATILDA SPALDING DAVISON TO REV. DR. DAVID R. AUSTIN: c.1 MAR. 1839
". Here we found a friend
in the person of Mr. Patterson, an editor of a newspaper.(#) He exhibited
his manuscript to Mr. P, who was very much pleased with it, and borrowed
it for perusal. He retained it for a long time and informed Mr. S. that if he
would make out a title page and preface, he would publish it, and it would
be a source of profit.
“This Mr. S. refused to do, for reasons for which I can not now state. Sidney
Rigdon, one of the leaders and founders of the sect, who had figured so
largely in the history of the Mormons, was at this time connected with the
printing office of Mr. Patterson, as is well known in that region, and as Rigdon
himself has frequently stated. Here he had ample opportunity to
become acquainted with Mr. Spalding’s manuscript, and to copy it if he
chose. It was a matter of notoriety and interest to all who were connected
with the printing establishment."
McKee to Deming JAN1986:
"After consideration and further inquiry he concluded to remove his family to that village, and did remove in October 1814, rented the hotel and opened it, as a public-house, but without a bar.
Mr. Spaulding told me that while at Pittsburg he frequently met a young man named Sidney Rigdon at Mr. Patterson's bookstore and printing-office, and concluded that he was at least an occasional employee. He was said to be a good English and Latin scholar and was studying Hebrew and Greek with a view to a professorship in some college. He had read parts of the manuscript and expressed the opinion that it would sell [readily]. While the question of printing was in abeyance Mr. S. wrote to Mr. P. that if the document was not already in the hands of the printer he wished it to be sent [out] to him in order that he might amend it by the addition of a chapter on the discovery of valuable relics in a mound recently opened near Conneaut. In reply Mr. P. wrote him that the manuscript could not then be found, but that further search would be made for it. This excited Mr. Spaulding's suspicions that Rigdon had taken it home. In a week or two it was found in the place where it had originally been deposited, and sent out to him. The circumstance of this finding increased Mr. S's suspicions that Rigdon had taken the manuscript and made a copy of it with a view [to] ultimately publishing the story as the product of his own brain. "
Oliver Smith may simply have not mentioned the MSCC because he may have figured it wasn't relevant or necessary to the statement. Apparently he was shown MSCC by Hurlbut ..and Howe says the witnesses shown MSCC after their original statement say Spalding wrote another going back in time and in scriptural language.