UFO: The Greatest Story Ever Denied.

[_Ray A]

Shadow,

I don't have the time to reply, and clarify further where I stand, at the moment, and I know this subject is taboo for many, however, I think we may need to stretch our minds a bit (not suggesting you haven't). So until I do have more time I'm posting some links for fellow lunatics and cranks to consider.

Scientists weigh in on Stephen Hawking's alien warning.

Excerpts:

Randy D. Allen, a biologist at Oklahoma State University, argued that a smart-enough species could develop a quantum computer and eventually transfer their consciousnesses into it.

""Perhaps ... they can "see" or "feel" the entire universe. Maybe they've gained the ability to manipulate elementary particles and can control its evolution and its fate. They would have become, by any human definition, gods."

GianCarlo Ghirardi, a physicist at Italy's University of Trieste, asked why intelligent aliens should have negative intentions toward earthlings. "If Hawking's aliens are anything like humans, then I am optimistic ... that their scientific development should be accompanied also by an ethical development, and (they) might value life," he wrote.

Hawking and others on Aliens (clips).

Stephen Hawking Aliens Warning 5/5.

I'm not as pessimistic as Hawking, but I don't underestimate the seriousness of a very real and possible future threat. There is both good and evil in the cosmos, and leaving aside the Mormon applications (though not denying it; I'll just leave that for later), some kind of "war in heaven" could theoretically have occurred (among highly intelligent beings). Within the Bible, a book of both myth and truth, may also lie many of the answers not only to the beginning of life on earth, but the conclusion of life on earth as we know it, and the beginning of a "new system of things".

There is perhaps more truth to these oft quoted, and oft derided lines from Hamlet:

Hamlet:
Swear by my sword
Never to speak of this that you have heard.

Ghost:
[Beneath] Swear by his sword.

Hamlet:
Well said, old mole, canst work i' th' earth so fast?
A worthy pioner! Once more remove, good friends.

Horatio:
O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!

Hamlet:
And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Right now I must be about the more mundane business of "earning a crust".

[_Ray A]

I haven't watched your movie yet. It's too late and I'm heading to sleep, but I recall hearing a phrase by Carl Sagan, who was fascinated with the topic of an infinite universe.
He said, (paraphrasing) in an infinite universe it is likely to have infinite life.
Sagan was fascinated with theorizing infinity but not in such an open minded way that he would jump to confusions - the mark of a great scientist. Which was likely why he was highly respected by the world.
What kind of life appears to be unclear at this time.

Twenty years ago I received a stack of papers from a prominent Ufologist (who shall remain nameless) proving that Sagan was given undeniable evidence of the existence of UFOs/Aliens, and whitewashed it all. This Examiner article in May last year may explain why:

Carl Sagan knew UFOs are real - confidant reveals, but kept viewpoint quiet to avoid losing funding

This only backs up what I knew 20 years ago. Sagan was part of the “official” government propaganda campaign to deny the existence of UFOs/Aliens, or “keep an open mind”. Funny that he should write a book titled Contact. You can find a lot of information about this subject on the Internet. Sagan was also officially part of what I call “the weather balloon propagandists". The documentary I linked in the OP also gives a brief insight into this.

A few weeks ago I caught a repeat episode on the History Channel about WW2's Nazi space engineering. It fascinated me. Did you catch it?

http://www.iwatchdocumentaries.com/documenatries/discovery-channel-nazi-ufo-conspiracy-2010/

It claims that German scientists translated ancient Sanskrit texts to formulate ideas for flying machines and that these machines are what people may be currently seeing in the skies as ufo's.

Haven’t been able to view this yet (plug-in problems) but I’ll have a look for it from another source later in the week.

While googling for a download of the documentary I came across an interesting video which describes radioactive blasting that affected the Indus Valley thousands of years BCE. The cause can only be theorized and speculated but the link was interesting in that it coordinated ancient texts from that time period. Texts were written in the Sanskrit vedas but prior to recording them were passed down verbally so it's unclear to find an exact date pinning the information even though the written texts can be dated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_PfhV_Hns4

If aliens have been with us throughout history, which I believe they have, then this is not inconceivable. However, the evidence for extra-terrestrial origins of many, if not most of them, is overwhelming.

Perhaps these are the GODS Smith was in contact with? He does adhere to the old testament which gets much of its message from Sumerian stories. If so, I'll pass as he was led down the garden path which would explain the deceptive patterns consistant throughout Mormonism prophet apostle leadership past and present. (which is fine if a member doesn't demand its prophet apostles of God to be ethical, truthful and upright - but if a member does demand truthfulness and integrity of it's God Prophet then this becomes an obvious issue for those who have been more than just "cultural" Mormons and quite often a complete dealbreaker for those of a more serious spiritually demanding bent -- but I digress.)

You did digress, but it’s worth a comment. If I’ve given the impression that I support contemporary Mormonism in all of its corporate and bureaucratic “glory”, then I’ve seriously misled you, or failed to clarify that this isn’t the case at all. But in fact, I know I’ve written that modern Mormonism is very different to the religion that Joseph Smith founded, minus King Follett Discourses and healthy speculation, etc., to be replaced by tele-promoters, “I don’t know that we teach that”, and excommunications of “dissidents” as defined by modern “orthodoxy”. Hell, what a different world modern Mormonism is, and I doubt there’s any place in it, at all, for me. If Moroni was indeed an “alien” (Erich Von Daniken believes so) sent by a God who sits upon a literal throne, and Joseph Smith did reveal long lost knowledge in many areas (I’m always fascinated by the concept that of all the creations of God, earth is host to the most wicked of all of them), I see z-e-r-o connection to the Church today that evolved out of that. So I think I’d have little if any disagreement with you there.

Do you believe/suspect that this is the Elohim plural Gods as mentioned in the old testament, which was information taken and "tweaked" from sumerian tales?

I think it is “possible” that Moroni was literally (not an extract from an ancient text) indeed a “visitor” from another solar system, and possibly part of an overall plan by the “gods” to “redeem” humankind, or “raise the level of spiritual awareness”, and the Book of Mormon is “possibly” part of that “plan”, but this wouldn’t hypothetically negate other religious traditions, such as the Vedas, from having validity insofar as having the same general goal of “raising spiritual awareness”.

RayA: Our only recourse is to trust in God, the overseer of all this. Should we fail, then we are at the mercy of any invading alien forces, who have so far been restrained from interfering with us.

If you have followed Smith into trusting this GOD you say you trust

I don’t specifically trust in “Smith’s God”, and didn’t in fact say so. I only said what I repeated above about “possibilities”, and I remain a universalist. Mormonism does seem to come closer to the “cosmic truths” though than many other religions, in my opinion. I can really admire that, but I don’t admire the high council : )

then I wish you luck RayA and I sincerely and genuinely mean that. If I am to surmise anything by the small number of videos and research I've done is that I wouldn't trust THAT God within an inch of my life - whether that god is myth or reality doesn't matter; I oppose this. I will not fear that God, but neither would I trust "it".

I remain, for now, agnostic about much, but I see where you’re coming from. An Old Testament God doesn’t appeal to me either. Rest assured, however, that I’m not going to be “doing a Don Bradley”. I think the Book of Mormon is probably the best thing to come out of Mormonism, but I don’t see it or the modern Church as necessarily in harmony on all points. In fact, we all know the many differences. I suppose one really has to wholeheartedly accept Smith as a prophet to believe that he could so blatantly contradict the Book of Mormon, but I do think there are some good thought-sparking ideas in the POGP. As for me ultimately putting my whole trust in him as prophet of God with sole authority - I can't see that happening.

What if these are the Gods you and Smith and others who worship the old testament and other religious texts? I'm only offering that up as an idea since you asked for open minded debates.

Let me make that clear again: I don't "worship" any material "god", least of all Smith's. Saying that "advanced aliens" can achieve "god status", and be to us "like Gods" (and even possibly raise us to higher levels of eco and personal awareness), isn't the same as saying I'd bow down to and worship a corporeal alien. My idea of God, or the "Ultimate God", if you like, goes well beyond all that, and I still remain an agnostic-theist.

[_bluedream]

If Moroni was indeed an “alien” (Erich Von Daniken believes so) sent by a God who sits upon a literal throne, and Joseph Smith did reveal long lost knowledge in many areas (I’m always fascinated by the concept that of all the creations of God, earth is host to the most wicked of all of them), I see z-e-r-o connection to the Church today that evolved out of that. So I think I’d have little if any disagreement with you there.

Thanks for the link and your posts Ray.

Do you know of Alex Collier? Coincidentally enough, he was visited by The Alien Morenae of Andromeda.

What are your thoughts on him?

[_Ray A]

Thanks for the link and your posts Ray.

Do you know of Alex Collier? Coincidentally enough, he was visited by The Alien Morenae of Andromeda.

What are your thoughts on him?

Bluedream, I do know about Alex Collier, and many others like him who have made similar claims, like George Adamski. Even Steven Greer has had his share of "encounters", all of which are interesting reading, but unsupported by solid evidence. I'm not saying such things didn't or can't happen, but my interest and studies are basically limited to more evidence-based facts. It's sort of like Moroni in Joseph's bedroom. Can anyone prove this happened, since we only have Joseph's word that it did? No. As much as the story appeals, and as important as it is in the foundation of Mormonism, it doesn't hold the same water as, for example, 11 witnesses, or multiple witnesses, and whatever one may think of the evidence for that, it's stronger than the witness of one.

When we get into individuals and their claims we are swimming in open seas with strong currents which could take us anywhere. That hasn't been my aim in UFO studies. When claims add up, backed by more and more witnesses, that is what interests me. Ufology, like religion, can appeal to a mystic side, a yearning to know the answers, and it can take on a very "religious" tone and direction. I've had my fair share of "bosom burning" in my time as a Mormon, but my approach to Ufology does not involve reading individual accounts (at any great length anyway) of claimed visits to Andromeda, and L.Ron Hubbard-like people who wish to set themselves up as New Age Messiahs who hold intergalactic secrets. No doubt they can be interesting reading, and I've heard people use words like "inspiring" to describe them, but no matter how "inspiring" they are, or how truthful they may sound to one, such accounts could also be entirely made up. Again I can draw a parallel to the Book of Mormon. Is it history? To some that question really matters; to others it's what the book teaches, or what they feel is "inspiring", and whether it is history is only a secondary consideration, and after 181 years this is still being debated. You have the "true believers"; the not so true believers, and the skeptics. I can still be "inspired" by many parts of the Book of Mormon, but ultimately I don't think it's going to result in a radical reassessment of American history or prehistory, but if it does, then it will have to come through evidence-based channels, not because it is "inspiring". Likewise many individuals feel a sense of purpose and meaning, and feel "inspired" by some who claim to have taken tours of alien civilisations and been told "secrets of the universe". Nothing at all wrong with holding that as an individual belief, but it's outside the parameters of my main interest in Ufology.

Ufology does not provide "final answers" to the long asked and pondered questions about human existence, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a step in the right direction to possibly understanding our beginnings in the stars and the universe (and maybe "they" have more answers than we do). So although there may well be something to some individual claims which have a "ring of truth" to many, I approach all of these individual claims as an interested agnostic, and nothing more. Where claims have more substance through witnesses and evidence, they become of more interest.

[_bluedream]

Thanks for your response Ray. I agree with what you've said, although I admit, sometimes I do seem to get sucked into such accounts you've spoken of. So your wisdom is much appreciated.

Not that I really think too much of Collier one way or the other, but I do find it interesting that his contact happens to be "The Alien Moronae"

[_Ray A]

Thanks for your response Ray. I agree with what you've said, although I admit, sometimes I do seem to get sucked into such accounts you've spoken of. So your wisdom is much appreciated.

Not that I really think too much of Collier one way or the other, but I do find it interesting that his contact happens to be "The Alien Moronae"

There's nothing wrong that, but it's just not my particular interest. This is an example of the sort of speculation I'm interested in:

What Role Will Extraterrestrials Play In Humanity's Future?, (Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, Vol. 39, pp 491-498 [November, 1986]).

Perhaps surprisingly to some, more and more of this sort of theorising has been forthcoming in recent years. The extraterrestrial phenomenon is only a joke to the same types of people who believed in a flat earth. We are not only going to have to wake up to the fact that they are, and have for a long time, been visiting us, but will play a vital role in humanity's future. Steven Greer was not understating it when he said that these events are the most important that have ever occurred in human history.

Washington Press Conference Robert Hastings Ufos and Nukes.

[_Quasimodo]

You'll love this, Ray (if you haven't seen it yet):

http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

The UK Government releases UFO files.

[_Ray A]

You'll love this, Ray (if you haven't seen it yet):

http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

The UK Government releases UFO files.

Thanks, Quas, very interesting reading if you can get through all of it (I haven't). I already had this link on my blog, along with many other countries who have declassified UFO files.

While that's not new to me, this is:

Mormon Transhumanist Association.

About MTA.

It was emailed to me by a Christian friend yesterday. They (Christians) believe this is "the work of the devil". I don't know what to make of it yet.

[_Quasimodo]

I have another one for you, Ray. This one is very impressive.

A NASA scientist just published this paper detailing what he is pretty sure are bacteria fossils found in a meteorite. Lots of news stories on the web if you look.

This link is to his actual paper (with photos!) in the Journal of Cosmology. Could be the "smoking gun".

http://journalofcosmology.com/Life100.html

[Guest]

If Moroni was indeed an “alien” (Erich Von Daniken believes so) sent by a God who sits upon a literal throne, and Joseph Smith did reveal long lost knowledge in many areas (I’m always fascinated by the concept that of all the creations of God, earth is host to the most wicked of all of them), I see z-e-r-o connection to the Church today that evolved out of that. So I think I’d have little if any disagreement with you there.

I've never heard of Erich Von Daniken.
What's his story? I'll have to google him.

edited: Von Daniken from Chariots of the Gods. Yes, I know who you're talking about now.

thanks for explaining your take on this.
I apologize for writing like I assumed your answers. Such is the problem with writing over face-to-face. I should have been more careful to rephrase my words in questions.

Like I said, I'm far from knowledgeable about the ufo topic, but I enjoy reading all kinds of ideas and theories and it appears that there are as many ufo theories as there are religions.

What is your opinion on the ufo disclosure project?

http://www.disclosureproject.org/

I recently read an interesting theory about the Sumerian Enki/Enlil mythology which I found fascinating.