Spirituality or just emotion...?

[_Corpsegrinder]

Emilysmith wrote:

I might be curious to see such a thing, but usually they are just attempts to prove free will through quantum indeterminacy. Neural plasticity is what allows our neural network to change and the structure of our cells and networks aren't really reacting to anything in regards to quantum indeterminacy. If you were to blast someone with different types of radiation, the altered atoms would not result in anything that one could perceive... besides maybe a burning sensation when exposed to an extremely large amount.

Thanks for the clarification.

Free will through quantum indeterminacy…that, at least, is a rather catchy phrase. I’ll have to remember that one.

DrW wrote:

Warren Jeffs of the FLDS Church, David Koresh of the Branch Davidians, Marshal Applewhite of the Heaven's Gate Cult, Jim Jones of Peoples Temple, and countless other people, many of them delusional, believe (or believed) that they have (or had) access to special knowledge from spiritual, supernatural, or magical sources.

These individuals are all good examples, but they pale in comparison to a gentleman by the name of Hung Syou-chywan (or in pinyin, Hong Xiuquan).

Hung was a failed Confucian scholar in Southern China during the waning days of the Ching Dynasty who, in or around 1840, experienced a series of visions in which God revealed to him that he was the younger brother of Jesus Christ. God also informed Hung that the various Christian sects that were then proselytizing in China were corrupt, having fallen into a state of apostasy. Consequently, Hung was commanded by God to “restore” Christianity and given authority to do so. He was also commanded--and this is truly amazing part--to raise an army and overthrow the corrupt Ching Dynasty. Over the next two decades, Hung went out and did exactly that: he raised an army of between 700,000 and 800,000 soldiers and came very close to accomplishing his goal. The resulting conflict came to be known as the Taiping Tyangwo Rebellion and to this day it constitutes the largest civil war in recorded history. Total causalities are, of course, unknown but Chinese scholars estimate between twenty and thirty million died before Ching soldiers put down the rebellion.

Like any other war, The Taiping Tyangwo Rebellion was the result of a confluence of many complex social and historical phenomena. But from the perspective of its leader, Hung Syou-Chwyan, it was quite literally a Christian uprising against a blasphemous pagan regime.

Mormons who study Hung Syou-Chwyan are often struck by parallels between him and Joseph Smith. Like his Mormon counterpart, Hung claimed a Heavenly mandate to “restore” Christianity as it exists in ancient times. Hung also undertook to “re-translate” the Bible, and he authored multiple volumes of modern scripture that were accorded a level of veneration equal to that of the Bible. Hung also practiced polygamy in secret, in fulfillment of a commandment from God.

[_sheryl]

Hi DrW!

Sheryl,
Thank you for your response. Your beliefs are shared by many in this world - far too many, in fact. Here is where your arguments fail - and I am talking about utter failure. Everyth9ng you claim as evidence for your position is better explained by science. More on this below.

To start with, there is no evidence whatsoever that the human brain is evolving in a way that makes it more attuned to "reality beyond the physical". In fact, if one were to look at belief in the supernatural, belief in spiritual influences and superstitions (which is exactly what you are referring to, with or without intent), one would see that these kind of beliefs were much more prevalent earlier in human history (think Salem Witch Trials vs. MIT).

To cut right to the chase, I do not disagree that humanity once held to superstitions, which we can certainly consider lesser ideas about reality. Where you and I differ is perhaps concluding that the spiritual is excluded from our present understanding of reality. I would say that superstition, or even pagan ideas, about the nature of reality were lesser ideas about God, and our present scientific understanding represents a greater understanding of God, and the true nature of reality.
Superstition and pagan ideas held that there were spiritual beings subjectively controlling the material plane, which could then be influenced by man. The laws that control physical reality though are not subjective, but as science has proven they are objective. I offer that this does not mean that God does not exist or that there is no spiritual reality, but that the nature of God and the spiritual worlds are different than what was believed by a superstitious and pagan humanity.

Regarding the evolution of the consciousness of humanity, I offer that the evolution of physical humanity, or specifically the brain, is not equivalent with the evolution of consciousness. The brain has evolved, but is not something we can document, methinks, in recent history. What is documented though is the evolution of human consciousness, or how we use our brain, we might say. The evolution of human consciousness or man’s ability to grasp greater understanding and knowledge is reflected in our technological, social, and yes spiritual advances. We are evolving from limited ways of thinking to more expansive ideas. The decreasing presence of superstition is a sign of evolution of the human collective consciousness: more and more of humanity is able to see beyond superstition, just as more and more of humanity is able to see beyond racism, or gender discrimination, or even religious discrimination. And we are producing individuals among us who have carried us to greater understandings of materiality. A more accepting collective consciousness, of new and different ideas, of those different than we are, etc is an evolving collective consciousness.

Carl Sagan described those who believe as you do as living in a Demon Haunted World. A much larger percentage of the population lived in Demon Haunted Worlds in the past than live there now. When you proclaim the worldview and beliefs as you do, you are placing yourself squarely in a Demon Haunted World.

I am not familiar with this categorization by Carl Sagan, though I like him very much, and would offer that there are a multitude of worlds we place ourselves in – and usually subconsciously.

Yes, there are some among us who place themselves in some sort of Demon Haunted World - most though not realizing they are being influenced by demons – or by a Demon Haunted World of their own creating. Those among us trapped in a Demon Haunted World are those who are in bondage to sorrow and suffering, to their own, and worse to that of others. Such individuals are stuck in depression, or other misery, or worse they are being influenced to cause the suffering and misery of others. Murderers, evil rulers, those conducting genocides, Hitler and other horrid rulers, those who killed the supposed witches of Salem all were or are in bondage to a Demon Haunted World, being made to fear what they do not understand, and lash out with violence to protect themselves.

All of this is demonic influence in our world.

On the other side we have those who have found a Divine World, and are greatly influenced by it. Some are influenced unknowingly by the Divine, to bring great good into this world, and some are influenced consciously or are able to commune with angelic beings etc.

The masses among us though are in bondage to a world of admixture, or self alone concern, or what some call the Archonic world. These selfish powers rule this world and heavily influence most people. Sometimes they bring good and sometimes they bring evil into the world.

Bondage occurs with the Demonic World and with the Archonic world – people being compelled by self seeking desires or fears. Only the Divine influence occurs in freedom, when we are free to choice consciously. If we are free, and not in bondage, we will always choose what will bring the greater benefit to humanity. It is just the way creation works, what we are designed to do, to bring about, according to our free will.

You seem to have human evolution exactly backwards. Humankind is headed out of the darkness of the Demon Haunted World with the light provided through advances in science leading the way. If you choose to stay behind, fine. Please do not claim that you and those who share your worldview represent the evolution of humankind. The data say that exactly the opposite is true. And we do have the data.

Yes, humanity has evolved so that we can become free of both the demonic and the archonic, and freely choose to do what is most beneficial, without fear of the unknown or the unfamiliar.

You make the circular statement that only those who have the spirit will be able to perceive the spirit. Think about it. What does this even mean? If I don't have the spirit how can I get the spirit if I can't perceive the spirit unless I have the spirit? Can you see how weak this kind or reasoning really is?

I do not know if you believe anything in the Bible, but it is said:

9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

If we desire the Holy Spirit we have to seek it, ask for it, etc.

As a scientist, I would never say that only those who have science can understand science. What I do say is that anyone who is the least bit interested in how the world works can learn about how it works by learning a bit about science for themselves.

I would say it depends on the evolution of consciousness. Some among us can easily grasp new ideas, some among us cannot. And often those who have lived a length of time holding to certain ideas or a certain way of doing things, have a more difficult time learning, adapting, which is why we find leaps and bounds of advancement between generations. Such is obvious with technological advances, our children have a much easier time learning the new than our seniors. And we see in the present generation the absence of prejudices that were prevalent in the generation before mine. In my daughter’s circle, the kids talk about how cool it is to be black or part black, or asian or part asian. Among my children’s friends, it is cool to be gay, or to have gay friends. Such a change from 2 generations passed! And to tie this into a forum on the LDS – Mormons lag in advances in consciousness evolution – holding to the ‘old human ways’ thinking they were directions from God, instead of less evolved ways of functioning that influenced how they interpreted what they heard from God.

And so I offer that more advanced ideas about God and reality (a reality that includes the spiritual) are just starting to make their way into the collective consciousness of humanity – what Jesus revealed 2000 years ago, is now just beginning to make a dent in the collective consciousness of humanity.

Just have a look at my newly acquired signature line (courtesy of Gadianton on another thread). He was not joking. I would go so far as to say that any NOVA program or informational/educational video from the NSF or MIT contains more useful knowledge than is present in all of the spiritually inspired utterances of religionists.

Perhaps the purpose for your present incarnation is scientific - this is how you will best serve humanity. I tend to lean towards spiritually inspired utterances, not of religionists though, but of true spiritual humanity. This seems to be where I am drawn in this incarnation.

Neither set of examples you have provided constitute evidence for your case. And saying that everything that happens in the world is an example of evidence for your case is not helpful - really.

And again, here is why your assertion about the spirit fail: the best hypotheses to explain the way the world works, and all of the phenomenon that one observes in the world - those you cite as evidence for the spirit - are in fact scientific hypotheses. That is, things that you ascribe to "the spirit" are best explained by science, without exception.

And if you wish to counter that claim, then you will still need to provide some specific verifiable physical evidence, or specific examples, for your position. And claiming that everything that happens in the world is evidence is not quite specific enough, I'm afraid.

If your love is science, DrW then I encourage you to seek truth there. What is important is that we are compelled by true desire, and not in bondage to fear or to old and limited ideas.

Peace be within you.

Sheryl

[_Drifting]

World War 2 occurred because of spiritual influence?

Indeed. What occurs in the physical is a reflection of what is occurring on the inner planes, both external and internal to us.

In other words, evil and the struggle against evil in the material directly corresponds to evil and the struggle against evil on the inner side, or the spiritual realms of creation - external and internal being basically the same. So the internal struggle within humanity between good and evil becomes manifest in wars, as well as sporting events! ;)

There were many righteous beings living during the time of WWII that we busy influencing the allies on the inner side, empowering them, to defeat Germany. The allies were deemed the lesser evil, the greater evil, the axis powers, would have greatly deterred the evolution of souls if they had triumphed.

Peace be within you.

Sheryl

So....

In Vietnam during that war it was the Vietnamese who were righteous?

[Guest]

These individuals are all good examples, but they pale in comparison to a gentleman by the name of Hung Syou-chywan (or in pinyin, Hong Xiuquan).

Hung was a failed Confucian scholar in Southern China during the waning days of the Ching Dynasty who, in or around 1840, experienced a series of visions in which God revealed to him that he was the younger brother of Jesus Christ. God also informed Hung that the various Christian sects that were then proselytizing in China were corrupt, having fallen into a state of apostasy. Consequently, Hung was commanded by God to “restore” Christianity and given authority to do so. He was also commanded--and this is truly amazing part--to raise an army and overthrow the corrupt Ching Dynasty. Over the next two decades, Hung went out and did exactly that: he raised an army of between 700,000 and 800,000 soldiers and came very close to accomplishing his goal. The resulting conflict came to be known as the Taiping Tyangwo Rebellion and to this day it constitutes the largest civil war in recorded history. Total causalities are, of course, unknown but Chinese scholars estimate between twenty and thirty million died before Ching soldiers put down the rebellion.

Like any other war, The Taiping Tyangwo Rebellion was the result of a confluence of many complex social and historical phenomena. But from the perspective of its leader, Hung Syou-Chwyan, it was quite literally a Christian uprising against a blasphemous pagan regime.

Mormons who study Hung Syou-Chwyan are often struck by parallels between him and Joseph Smith. Like his Mormon counterpart, Hung claimed a Heavenly mandate to “restore” Christianity as it exists in ancient times. Hung also undertook to “re-translate” the Bible, and he authored multiple volumes of modern scripture that were accorded a level of veneration equal to that of the Bible. Hung also practiced polygamy in secret, in fulfillment of a commandment from God.

Corpsgrinder,

Sounds like an interesting fellow. The Chinese have a reputation for doing this kind of thing in a big way. I will be reading more about this guy.

Thanks for posting this.
___________________

by the way: Like your new avatar. DCP must be proud of you, wherever he is ;-).

[_Franktalk]

Sheryl,

Nice to see you posting again. I think there may be some things in the physical world which provide a link to the spiritual. From my perspective everything physical is linked and the effects are obvious but to the materialist they need something else. I have found that memories and learned traits can provide a link. But to do so requires a massive undertaking and a long time.

There was a man who rejected Darwinism and believed in acquired knowledge from ancestors this would be a classic Lamarckian concept. Here is his background.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mc ... ologist%29

He set up an experiment to test his beliefs. He trained rats in a maze one generation after the next to see if the rats became faster from one generation to the next. This took twenty years. He showed that indeed the rats became faster and learned quicker. He thought he had proven inherited traits. But because his test was so long and involved it was not repeated by his peers and many rejected his findings as well.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v1 ... 2791a0.pdf

Just the overview of this 1933 article gives a flavor of McDougall's experiment.

In time his experiment was repeated by Agar and the results published in 1953.

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/31/3/307.short

In the last article you can read that they proved that Lamarckian processes were not there. The control group and the active group did not have differences. So all of science could rest easy and Darwin was back on top. But sometime the devil is in the details. Or in this case an unseen influence on the rats.

A man came up with a theory to explain some odd behavior in animals and man, his name is Sheldrake. His morphic field theory is an attempt to describe the influence of the spirit world on this world.

http://www.co-intelligence.org/P-moreon ... cflds.html

What was important in the rat experiment was that the control rats became faster as well without training or a genetic link. Other tests showed links as well. I find this interesting as a subject because I have never had a single person in the material world look upon this data with any interest. They quickly find some article that declares Sheldrake a nut job and drop any investigation. It is as if they don't want to look at anything which may change their view of the world. To me this explains why people could stand before Christ while He walked the earth yet could not see Him as the Son of God. The world is strong and we are weak. Anyway I thought I would share this information.

[_emilysmith]

To say that people with the spirit are the only ones who can perceive the spiritual is still saying that you feel something and because you feel something, you know it is true (spirit being more than just emotion). There is no way to separate the emotional component out of this for people who are unable to believe otherwise.

The problem is that the presence of a "spirit" is testable in a number of ways. The most obvious way is that two people who claim to have access to divine messages from God get two directly conflicting points of view. This isn't a matter of what an individual is ready to believe, it is a matter of two people doing the same thing and getting different results.

Whether or not a spirit exists, because of the discrepancy between spiritual messages, we have proof that it is unreliable. If it is unreliable and not to be trusted, then what is it good for? It obviously isn't good for leading a church, since the Mormon Prophets cannot get a unified message without resorting to less metaphysical processes... the same way a secular corporation might conduct itself.

Even worse, is that the people at the top of the Mormon Church who have studied sociology, organizational psychology, and education have all given themselves the tools to impose a campaign of propaganda and misinformation. While they try to put the best face on the problems in Church history and doctrine, they are still consciously making a decision everyday to be dishonest. Is this what the Spirit is telling them to do?

In this day and age, though, we can compare more than just the religious message of two people who claim divine inspiration. Studies have been conducted where the brains of people are observed in functional scans during religious experiences. This is an area that will only get more and more in depth. Sensations where you are having an out of body experience can be watched as the part of your brain that creates your sense of self is quieted. When the part of your brain that perceives time is quieted, you feel like a moment lasts forever. When the part of your brain that aids in spatial orientation also goes quiet, you have an out of body experience where time stops and you feel one with everything.

We can explain, in material terms, why people feel they have access to divine information. We know they feel that way because we know which parts of the brain do what. So, believe me when I say that I understand the point of view of everyone who claims that a "spirit" exists and that you have access to it.

Not only have I had these feelings, myself, I have been increasing my awareness as to how and why these feelings exist. From cultural constructs to biology, our realities are built a piece at a time. It is impossible to convince someone to change their reality because we learn through association. Any information we acquire is acquired because it is placed in association with everything else that we know. This means that you must unlearn things that stretch back all the way to from when you were young.

This is one reason ex-mormons are a fascinating set of people. There aren't very many of them, and many have different reasons for leaving. But, some have an incredibly questioning and independent natures that had to be as strong as can be to rise above the many ways that the LDS culture holds onto people.

By overcoming these, largely cultural, obstacles, it becomes easier for them to see through the trappings of other cultures and other religions. When TBM's come here, these are often the people that you face in debate.

They are good at it, and they, mostly, are correct. In the end, the debate comes down to this very issue.

Is there really such thing as a spiritual/metaphysical force that people commune with?

Problem of inconsistent revelations, cultural syncretism, and functional brain scans aside; the laws that govern our minds are remarkably consistent and can be tested and explained in gradually more accurate and more complex ways.

As I said before, the God of the Gaps has run out of places to hide. Once upon a time, we could have said that MAYBE spiritual forces interact with our minds at the microscopic level. That possibility disappeared. Then MAYBE we could have said that the electrochemical activity provides the quick of thought and THAT is where the spirit interacts with our body. Alas, the laws of chemistry are well understood and are utterly consistent. No spirit there.

Of course, the last vestige of hope would be the sub-atomic particles, but only by people who didn't understand classic chemistry. We, the world and its combined knowledge, understand why there is no room left for God to operate in our minds... other than as figments of our imagination.

Sophistry is well practiced here, but it does not change the truth of matters. Religion is a product of cultural heritage. The idea of what God, the soul and the divine are have been ever changing. When cave bears were the most powerful thing man faced, they were some of the first Gods. In Africa, lions were Gods. When man had mastered nature, the most powerful thing was man, himself, and he became a God.

And just so, intellectuals have always been feared by religious leaders all over the world. For thousands of years, the atheists have known they were right because of reason. And, for thousands of years, the religious have had nothing to fall back upon but how they feel about it.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

- Epicurus, Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

The only way to know is to free yourself from your culture and learn how to prove gradually more complex ideas. Only then, can you see why what "scientists" say is infinitely more reliable than what people just make up to rationalize how they feel.

[_Corpsegrinder]

Sophistry is well practiced here, but it does not change the truth of matters. Religion is a product of cultural heritage. The idea of what God, the soul and the divine are have been ever changing. When cave bears were the most powerful thing man faced, they were some of the first Gods. In Africa, lions were Gods. When man had mastered nature, the most powerful thing was man, himself, and he became a God.

QFT!!

Corpsgrinder,

Sounds like an interesting fellow. The Chinese have a reputation for doing this kind of thing in a big way. I will be reading more about this guy.

Thanks for posting this.

This is one of my favorite books about the Taipings...
God's Chinese Son: The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom of Hong Xiuquan

by the way: Like your new avatar. DCP must be proud of you, wherever he is ;-).

Thanks. I'm trying for an Edward Gorey look.

[_sheryl]

So....

In Vietnam during that war it was the Vietnamese who were righteous?

Hi Drifting!

I think a better conclusion is that the Vietnamese were not a threat to this world system and so there was not sufficient reason in the spiritual realms to intervene. Thus any in the world who tried to stop them were doing so by their own power, without assistance. We might even say that those who were trying to bring down the North Vietnamese were not a lesser evil.

Also the Vietnamese War was an outer manifestation of an unresolved inner struggle. The United States involvement was likewise a reflection of our own inner struggle. Shoot that is obvious given the conflict that arose in our country over the war.

Peace be within you,
Sheryl

[_Buffalo]

Religion is a product of cultural heritage. The idea of what God, the soul and the divine are have been ever changing. When cave bears were the most powerful thing man faced, they were some of the first Gods. In Africa, lions were Gods. When man had mastered nature, the most powerful thing was man, himself, and he became a God.

That was very eloquently expressed, thanks for sharing that.

[_Drifting]

So....

In Vietnam during that war it was the Vietnamese who were righteous?

Hi Drifting!

I think a better conclusion is that the Vietnamese were not a threat to this world system and so there was not sufficient reason in the spiritual realms to intervene. Thus any in the world who tried to stop them were doing so by their own power, without assistance. We might even say that those who were trying to bring down the North Vietnamese were not a lesser evil.

Also the Vietnamese War was an outer manifestation of an unresolved inner struggle. The United States involvement was likewise a reflection of our own inner struggle. Shoot that is obvious given the conflict that arose in our country over the war.

Peace be within you,
Sheryl

Brilliant, thanks for that.
Going back to world war two for a second.
Can you quote me some examples of where spirituality was involved with the allies to help them win - where similar examples cannot be found for the axis?