Stay Strong Saints

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_Themis
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _Themis »

gdemetz wrote:We are beating a dead horse here. If you will check out the reference gave you, it will explain in detail concerning the marriages for the next life only, and in particular to Joseph Smith's marriages. .


We have asked for evidence that Joseph thought his married wives were for the next life only, not evidence that some apologists do. Can you quote specific evidence you have in mind or are you going to keep avoiding this.

And, I reaffirm my prior statement that he had no sex and no children from these marriages.


That's what you want to believe.

I already explained the deathbed statement from mother to daughter that the daughter belonged to Joseph Smith. Do you have proof that she meant that she was the physical daughter of Joseph Smith as opposed to being the SEALED daughter to him?


You have avioded why she would only say this to one child, and the only one who could be Joseph's biological daughter. Again many apologists accept that Joseph probably did have sex with some of them.

There is absolutely no DNA evidence to show anything other than what I have said.


They have not checked them all, and in-particular Sylvia's daughters line.

Do you have proof that Zina had sex with her husband after she was married to Brigham Young and started top have children with him? If she did, then according to the statement I quoted from Brigham Young, she committed a grievous sin


The statement was from some member of the church, but I quoted BY and his horrible statement. I repeat it for you.

Brigham Young spoke in this wise, in the hearing of hundreds: He said it was time for men who were walking in other men's shoes to step out of them. "Brother Jacobs," he says, "the woman you claim for a wife does not belong to you. She is the spiritual wife of brother Joseph, sealed up to him. I am his proxy, and she, in this behalf, with her children, are my property. You can go where you please, and get another, but be sure to get one of your own kindred spirit."


This does not really support your assertion. BY does not need to be proxy for a next life marriage. I suspect Zina must have been a catch for both Joseph and BY to go after her. There is so much you ignore about what was going on, although I suspect you don't know much about it.
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_gdemetz
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _gdemetz »

You just answered your own question with the quote you gave from Brigham Young! He plainly states that Joseph's marriage was for the next life! Also, you are right. Brigham Young did not need to stand as a proxy for that wedding. I think it was done as a symbolic event just as some today who are already married exchange their vows again. You are also right about the DNA. I will welcome whatever results will come from that. I don't have any idea why these tests have not already been done.
_Drifting
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _Drifting »

gdemetz wrote:You just answered your own question with the quote you gave from Brigham Young! He plainly states that Joseph's marriage was for the next life! Also, you are right. Brigham Young did not need to stand as a proxy for that wedding. I think it was done as a symbolic event just as some today who are already married exchange their vows again. You are also right about the DNA. I will welcome whatever results will come from that. I don't have any idea why these tests have not already been done.


Do you welcome the results coming from DNA testing of native Americans?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Themis
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _Themis »

gdemetz wrote:You just answered your own question with the quote you gave from Brigham Young! He plainly states that Joseph's marriage was for the next life! Also, you are right. Brigham Young did not need to stand as a proxy for that wedding. I think it was done as a symbolic event just as some today who are already married exchange their vows again. You are also right about the DNA. I will welcome whatever results will come from that. I don't have any idea why these tests have not already been done.


Positive results will just mean altering your defense of Joseph. It's interesting how you want to define spiritual wifery. Look it up and you may realize that it can have many different meanings even by the same person. Joseph even referred to his wives as spiritual wives. No where in my quote does BY say that marriage was for the next life only. In fact if you read with an open mind you may see it would make so sense at all. BY does not need to be a proxy for a marriage he understood was only for the next life. You also miss what it says about BY for what he said and did to Henry. Same with Joseph and marrying women behind their husbands back. Even if you want to believe they were only for the next life. To go behind their backs shows very unethical behavior, not to mention makes no sense since you believe Joseph never intended it to be for the next life only. Getting permission for that would be fairly simple.
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_gdemetz
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _gdemetz »

No, if those tests come in positive, then I will have to do some serious soul searching. You are right, as I stated before, that it was not necessary for Brigham Young to do that sealing again. I also wonder why some people marry again when they are already married. Also, in the quote I gave you before, Brigham Young stated that this type of marriage, when a faithful LDS husband is still alive requires his consent.
_Drifting
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _Drifting »

gdemetz wrote:No, if those tests come in positive, then I will have to do some serious soul searching. You are right, as I stated before, that it was not necessary for Brigham Young to do that sealing again. I also wonder why some people marry again when they are already married. Also, in the quote I gave you before, Brigham Young stated that this type of marriage, when a faithful LDS husband is still alive requires his consent.



Would you be supportive of Warren Jeff's marriages if only one of them was used for sex?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_gdemetz
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _gdemetz »

No, I don't believe that he is a prophet of God.
_Drifting
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _Drifting »

gdemetz wrote:No, I don't believe that he is a prophet of God.



Would you believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God if he had sex with all his polygamous wives but not the ones who were already married with living husbands?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_gdemetz
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _gdemetz »

Yes, I believe that is what happened.
_Themis
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Re: Stay Strong Saints

Post by _Themis »

gdemetz wrote:No, if those tests come in positive, then I will have to do some serious soul searching. You are right, as I stated before, that it was not necessary for Brigham Young to do that sealing again. I also wonder why some people marry again when they are already married. Also, in the quote I gave you before, Brigham Young stated that this type of marriage, when a faithful LDS husband is still alive requires his consent.


You will find a lot of inconsistencies. Many members realize it does not make sense for God to have done this, and as well how it was done like lying and manipulation. Do you really want to believe an angel forced Joseph to marry so many including the married women, or does this sound like the excuses of a man who is trying use God as means of getting them to go against what they would normally be appalled to do. These patterns are common with the FLDS and other groups as well.
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