Fundamental Mormon Claims

[_Daniel Peterson]

What!!! so Joseph Smith is just talking away without knowing what he's talking about?

I don't think that any human, prophet or not, can comprehend what it is to perceive the universe from God's perspective. We can talk about it, but we can't grasp it.

Well Dan I believe seeking to know God is the most important thing we can do. To seek Him and learn of Him is our main goal as a believer and it is why we were created.

I more or less agree. But I don't think that the Christian's primary goal is to be able to assert true propositions about such things as the precise nature of God's knowledge. Much, much, much more important for the Christian is to learn to know God by living a Godlike life, e.g. by loving and by service.

Jesus Christ said, “… this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3.)

Then shall we know, [if] we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter [and] former rain unto the earth. (Hosea 6:3)

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (Hosea 6:6)

This is what the LORD says: "Don't let the wise boast in their wisdom, or the powerful boast in their power, or the rich boast in their riches.
But those who wish to boast should boast in this alone: that they truly know me and understand that I am the LORD who demonstrates unfailing love and who brings justice and righteousness to the earth, and that I delight in these things. I, the LORD, have spoken!
(Jer 9;23,24 NIV)

Correct! But what does it mean to "know" God? What did it mean for Adam to "know" his wife? The Bible isn't interested in mere propositional knowledge, and seldom if ever talks about such knowledge. It's interested, rather, in experiential knowledge. I don't think that Th.D. theologians have any advantage, as regards their prospects for salvation, over Bolivian peasants on the Altiplano. Maybe, indeed, quite the opposite.

Relationships grow when we gain knowledge of that person.

Quite so.

Personally I think we would all grow closer to God by seeking to know Him and His ways rather that the dribble that goes on these message boards.

I entirely agree.

Do you believe you grow closer to God by wanting to understand His nature more fully, or by you promoting yourself on this board.

You know, you would have been more plausible as an advocate of loving and knowing God and as a superior Christian© if you had omitted that last nasty little personal insult. It was quite uncalled for.

I was going to say that, yes, we would grow closer to God by wanting to understand His nature more fully than by -- and this is what I was naïvely expecting you to say -- participating in the endless spats on this board. But then you went and ruined it.

There is no official or fundamental doctrine regarding the specific nature of God's knowledge of the future.

There is more than enough LDS teaching on this. And the Bible is perfectly clear that God is All Knowing.

There is nothing in LDS teaching on this, and nothing in the Bible. Nothing.

Try, if you care, to understand what I'm saying. I won't be answering any more of your posts on this matter.

This whole conversation has reinforced my belief that "you guys" as apologist, shy away from core LDS doctrine.

So you're not only nasty, insulting, and uncharitable, you're unteachable.

So further exchanges with you will be, quite plainly, a waste of my time.

[_Mortal Man]

I know that you think you're arguing against my position that God doesn't know the future in minute detail, but I'm powerless to imagine how you might believe that the paragraph just above cuts against me.

What in the world are you talking about? There is nothing ad hominem in my paragraph above; neither did I intend for it to cut against you in any way.

Contrary to popular opinion, I am not an animal.

I think that God has perfectly, incomprehensibly, enormous power to make things happen that he intends to happen. It's not purely a matter of passive prediction.

So now you've changed your argument from omniscience to omnipotence. There are plenty of prophecies about the free choices people make. Did God force Charles Anthon to say, "I cannot read a sealed book"?

I think this would make a good topic for your next Mormon Times article (which I always look forward to, by the way). You could entitle it: "What is the nature of prophecy, omniscience or omnipotence? Does God violate chaos theory or free will?"

[_Daniel Peterson]

What in the world are you talking about? There is nothing ad hominem in my paragraph above;

I didn't say that there was.

neither did I intend for it to cut against you in any way.

Thanks for the clarification.

Contrary to popular opinion, I am not an animal.

I had never imagined that you were, but, still, I'm glad to hear it.

So now you've changed your argument from omniscience to omnipotence.

I haven't changed my argument. I've always said -- several times in this thread alone -- that my view of God's knowledge of future contingents rests upon the assumption (a reasonable one, in my view) that a being of peerless intelligence, knowledge, and power will have perfectly enormous capacity to ensure that the future turns out, at least in the big picture (and certainly in selected details), the way s/he wishes it to turn out.

There are plenty of prophecies about the free choices people make. Did God force Charles Anthon to say, "I cannot read a sealed book"?

No, I don't think God forced him to say that, any more than he has forced me to say or do certain things that, nonetheless, I feel I was inspired to say or to do.

I think this would make a good topic for your next Mormon Times article (which I always look forward to, by the way). You could entitle it: "What is the nature of prophecy, omniscience or omnipotence? Does God violate chaos theory or free will?"

Quite an assignment for a 700-word newspaper column.

I think that I'll resist your attempted inspiration and continue to choose my own topics. Thanks, though.

[Guest]

Hi Dan,

Like always you play the victim card when you get cornered, which seems to always be when you engage from a theological stand point, trying to defend the maze of LDS thought.

I did not say anything insulting Dan. You claimed that it was basically a waste of time to try to know God more fully, in the context of God being all knowing. I looked through the posts that you started here, and most seemed to be promoting your self Dan...how is that an insult, go back and read the posts you started? You're a big boy and you dish it out as much as any on these boards, if not more so, so quite playing the victim and searching for a out when you come up short in an argument.

Knowing God is all powerful is a key to understanding the need for the reverence of God. In context that is what is meant when the Bible tells us that the Fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom. And there are many LDS teachings on this subject and by saying that " it's not official" is a cop out. It doesn't matter what is official or not,what matter is what one teaches, and the LDS church has been all over the board on issues like this and that is why "you guys"can not defend most theological positions, and shy away from debating LDS theology.
Sorry but that's just the way it is.

Take care
MG

[_Mortal Man]

I think that I'll resist your attempted inspiration and continue to choose my own topics.

You see, God himself couldn't predict what you're going to write in your next column.

[_Nightlion]

Knowing God is all powerfull is a key to understanding the need for the reverence of God. In context that is what is meant when the Bible tells us that the Fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom....
MG

First works first. You do not lay a foundation with hammer and nail. But with both you finish the temple. The scriptures show the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning. Wisdom is knowing the sequence that actually accomplishes the task. The true fear of the Lord is to seek his kingdom rightly.

I have seen the uselessness of my presence on these boards. Though I conquer daily I have nothing gained for the Lord. Though I sow without ceasing I reap only the wind. Ever has it been so in this generation.

Like children the world adorns themselves with treasures of no worth, refusing to dig up the value from where it is. For so long only arrogantly the generations of men prefer to play a pretense constantly.

I do not know that these environs have seen the last of me. No, this is not sweet sorrow that drives my boot heels to wandering. There has got to be better way.

(Hey, Simon, is that a self portrait? You are not Will are you?)