Michael Ash - Shaken Faith Syndrome

[_Franktalk]

I have asked you to back this up more then once, but I also understand you cannot because it is not true. I am only interested in what is true, and if it means saying why I think something is incorrect I have no problem doing so. I at least will try to back up what I say. To bad you have failed to so on a number of issues in this thread.

Are you so blinded by your beliefs in man that you can't even see what you write yourself? In this environment I am supposed to clarify statements I make? What you write as true is actually an agenda of man, can you not see that is where we differ? I freely admit my agenda. I wish all men to come to God in faith. I will try and tell people how I came to believe. You may not believe me or more correctly you may not believe what I say can happen. That is fine for you but you view everything except what you believe to be a lie. The world is full of opinions but few people actually lie.

[_Themis]

Hi Themis,

My purpose here on this website is to share my personal experiencing of God through the Holy Ghost, to share my interpretations of what I think is being taught. It is my hope that others will do the same about their own experiencing and interpretations. This is how we learn from each other. Our experiences are our own; thus they are not arguable or debatable beyond supporting them with applicable scripture, since another person has no idea what the other has experienced until it is shared. So far, you have not shared your personal experiencing. Rather, you set up situations in order to "test" my experiences as if you have some ability to determine if I have failed or passed my life's experiences even though I am the one who has gone through them.

Although I never asked for your specific expereinces, you have not given alomst nothing on the issue. Lets show your post that resulted in myself and other asking you to explain.

the Church appropriately teaches investigators and members HOW to be able to discern the Holy Ghost

I have known no other religion which works as diligently as the LDS Church does on teaching how to recognize and to communicate with God through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Now the question was how a member or investigator will be able to discern and recognize the HG communicating to them. It was not about what a person needs to do in order to be worthy to have the HG communicate with them. We are still waiting for you or anyone else to address this.

Yours is not the agenda of sharing or edifying.

Actually I have shared some for the purpose of edification, but have not shared more due to this issue not being addressed by you or others. I does not help the discussion to poison it with accusations of some kind of evil agenda. We both have agenda's, and neither of them are bad.

Yours is a worldly agenda to try to fight and bring contention into a discussion. I simply will not go there.

I understand your beliefs and why you think you are not worldly and I am. Lets just say we disagree here.

You are a child of God; you are a spirit child of the Most High. This is how I see you - your actions to try to fight cannot effect me because I do not see your actions beyond what they are.

This is not a fight, but hopefully a discussion. It's to bad you seem to see and approach it as such. I am under no allusion that we will have total agreement here, but I think I am more then willing to find what common ground we can.

Since I have already presented my experiences and beliefs, though you have not presented yours and only want to disagree with mine, I consider this discussion at a stand still.

You have not presented much, and I never asked you to, but what you have presented did not address the question. personal experiences can be used, but are not necessary to answer how one recognizes or discerns the spirit, or what they believe to be the HG.

May God's peace and comfort uplift your spirit, Themis. Truth is all around us.

Truth really is in the proposition. If one proposes that the Christian God exists, the proposition is either true or false. You tend to use truth dealing with what you believe are relevant realities regarding your religious beliefs. I just mention this so you will at least know what most people are talking about when they say truth.

[_Themis]

Are you so blinded by your beliefs in man that you can't even see what you write yourself? In this environment I am supposed to clarify statements I make? What you write as true is actually an agenda of man, can you not see that is where we differ?

I understand you believe your beliefs come from God and not Man. In the end how we differ is more likely that I at least know where both our beliefs come from, and which ones are more reliable and more likely to be accurate. I already know you will think this arrogant and worldly. It just to bad you can't see that you are being just as worldly and arrogant, if that means it's arrogant to discuss these issues.

I freely admit my agenda. I wish all men to come to God in faith. I will try and tell people how I came to believe. You may not believe me or more correctly you may not believe what I say can happen. That is fine for you but you view everything except what you believe to be a lie. The world is full of opinions but few people actually lie.

I have not lied or hidden any agenda. Perhaps you could show where. I do not view anything I think as incorrect as a lie. You are making this up. A lie is saying something you know or believe is not true. Most people believe things that are not true, myself included, but it is not a lie when we express that belief that they are true. A lot of people here do not seem to understand the difference.

[Guest]

Of course they're my words. Hence the absence of quotes. Hence the absence of a quote box. Hence the presence of a qualifying "according to jo" (notice the quote marks; they mean I'm quoting someone, namely myself).

By putting your own spin on what you think my intentions are, rather than actually trying to understand my true intent.

All the better to "straighten" her out, right? That is, after all, what you're here for, right?

Absolutely not. I believe you are projecting your own intent and confusing it with mine. Please see my response to Themis which explains why I am here.

Asking you to comment on specific examples is an "anti-LDS" tactic?

Scolding you when you avoid answering said questions and examples is an "anti-LDS" tactic?

"Scolding" infers judgment; judgment is the Lord's.

Be careful Jo, you’re getting perilously close to saying anything that disagrees with you is an “anti-LDS” tactic.

Again, I see your own self projecting.

What specific "actions" are you accusing me of? If you uave a specific accusation to make, then you need to spit it out. No subtexts or wordgames, please.

I am not here to play "games". I do believe, however, that we can all fall into the category of self-dissillusion and call things something we claim they are not.

Matthew 12:34

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Yes, I could leave. Or, I could exercise ownership and responsibility over the religion that’s been part of my life for as long as I can remember and agitate from within for meaningful reforms.

I believe that your "agitation" could cause people to lose their faith in God. Some people have trouble deliniating between the Church and their relationship with God. I think that you have done this as well. You also seem to want to grasp to the idea that unless you remain a member of the Church, that you will be in danger of losing your salvation. I do not agree with members of the Church who believe in this way. I don't believe anyone should allow a religious institution to get between them and God. Therefore, rather than chancing serving Satan, though your intent may not be to serve him, you may want to consider other avenues to achieve your goal. I believe you are very cognizant of how many members of the Church equate their membership with their eternal salvation.

Mark 9:40

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

By creating agitation, it surely does not seem to me that you are for our part.

From the Oxford English Dictionary:
contention noun 1. heated disagreement. 2. an assertion. IDIOMS - in contention having a good chance of success in a contest.

Nothing on this thread even comes close to what a reasonable person would describe as "heated disagreement." It's a lot closer to what I would describe as "detailed, dispassionate scrutiny."

So perhaps you'll consider moderating your language when, in the future, you're moved to publicly declare what is and is not "of God."

Sorry, but I cannot, in good faith, moderate my language. I do notice however, that you have added ad hom attacking to your tactics. Apparently, I am not being reasonable because I do not agree with you that you are using contention. So be it.

On the contrary, “continual communication with the Holy Ghost” is your phrase, not mine. You used it in your first response in this thread:

Hi Stormy Waters,

My take is that Level B is from the perspective of the anti-Mormon. Therein is where the "evil, false and chaotic" is born. This does not equate into the "evil, false, and chaotic" to be accurate or true.

Since it is the Holy Ghost who is the witness of Truth on the earth (and this is NOT an original LDS belief, but is rather first taught in the New Testament), the Church appropriately teaches investigators and members HOW to be able to discern the Holy Ghost and learn how to eliminate the other noise we are all bombarded with while we are in the physical world. I have known no other religion which works as diligently as the LDS Church does on teaching how to recognize and to communicate with God through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Once an individual achieves this type of continual communication with the Holy Ghost (regardless of whether they are LDS or of any other religious persuasion), then nothing that man offers through their own interpretation of scripture or man's personal failings will have the same effect or ability to cause a person to lose their faith in God.

It may be my phrase; however, YOU are using it a manner it was never meant to be used. In fact, what I actually believe is, that as a result of someone achieving this level of "continual communication", that such an individual may very well be translated - much like Enoch was. But I am not personally aware of anyone that has reached such a level. I do, though, apply what I believe to see what my beliefs may actually look like.

In other words, the Church teaches it members (including you) how to be in “continual communication with the Holy Ghost” (again, your words, not mine).

Again, attempting to teach us this, does not equate into individuals actually achieving it. You are "agitating" my words against me to support your personal agenda.

Are you saying you’ve never heard of modern-day polygamy?

Go find some members of the Kingston Clan or some FLDS and ask them to tell you about “The Principal”. Modern Day polygamy is but on example of the damage that can be caused by people (like you) who claim to be in “continual communication with the Holy Ghost.”

Still agitating my words to fit your agenda. I would like to ask you a question. Do you think that your "agitating" from within the Church is any less dangerous than what you claim these other groups have done?

Okay, I’ll rephrase this particular question. Maybe you’ll find this version a bit less taxing:

More ad hom.

If an investigator asked you about Brother Joseph’s tryst with Fanny Alger, would you respond by telling him how the concept of eternal marriage brought added joy and happiness to Joseph’s marriage with Emma?

Here you are assuming that your interpretation of Joseph's alledged actions are correct. Even aside from the fact that I disagree with your interpretation, since when has ANY Prophet of God not still been fallible? In other words, if these allegations are true, doe this mean that Joseph Smith was NOT a Prophet of God? I do not believe that ANY Prophet (save Jesus), was perfect. Yet these realities do not concern me, like they concern you. I am more interested in the messages God has given them to reveal to us; the Holy Ghost confirms Truth to my spirit, because Truth can ONLY be spiritually discerned.

Does that make it easy enough for you?

Just another ad hom. I am sorry that you have no credibility with me. Your words do not ring true. However, you also are a child of God, and I love you regardless of your worldly opinions and interpretations which you claim. Any further discussion about this subject would bring me dangeraously close to fighting with you. I will not go there. Therefore, I will stick to the beliefs I have shared. Please forgive me if, in your opinion, I have crossed the line somewhere in our discussion. I am certainly far from having anything close to perfect perception. You seem to have the ability to push my buttons toward anger, and this it is not my desire - though I have a weakness to stand firmly in the world from time to time.

Much love,

jo

[_jo1952]

Although I never asked for your specific expereinces, you have not given alomst nothing on the issue. Lets show your post that resulted in myself and other asking you to explain.

Hi Themis!

Okay, you've convinced me to speak more on the issue. I have also offered scripture from both John and Paul on the subject of the Holy Ghost. Inasmuch as Paul, to me, has clearly defined that the Holy Ghost can only be discerned spiritually, I have shared that his writings are good sources for understanding this concept. Those who have not experienced, or do not recognize when the Holy Ghost is witnessing or revealing Truth to them, will simply not be able to relate to someone who has---for the very basic reason (which is scriptural - and NOT my original idea) that they have not. What more can I, as a mortal being, relate to another mortal being, something which can only be understood Spirit to spirit? It is impossible. So, all I can DO is share what I have experienced knowing ahead of time that only others who HAVE experienced this will understand what I am talking about. I did not set these principles; God did. I cannot change them; though I happily share them perchance a seed of desire may blossom at some point and someone WILL "get it".

Now the question was how a member or investigator will be able to discern and recognize the HG communicating to them. It was not about what a person needs to do in order to be worthy to have the HG communicate with them. We are still waiting for you or anyone else to address this.

See the above, as well as my other posts encouraging sincere seeking personally between an individual and God.

Actually I have shared some for the purpose of edification, but have not shared more due to this issue not being addressed by you or others. I does not help the discussion to poison it with accusations of some kind of evil agenda. We both have agenda's, and neither of them are bad.

Perhaps you will feel comfortable in sharing more; I promise not to try to dismantle your words.

I understand your beliefs and why you think you are not worldly and I am. Lets just say we disagree here.

If you share more, maybe I would be able to see things differently, as then I could see them from your pov.

This is not a fight, but hopefully a discussion. It's to bad you seem to see and approach it as such. I am under no allusion that we will have total agreement here, but I think I am more then willing to find what common ground we can.

I am willing to try - but it is so easy to cross over into fighting. Forgive me if I do.

You have not presented much, and I never asked you to, but what you have presented did not address the question. personal experiences can be used, but are not necessary to answer how one recognizes or discerns the spirit, or what they believe to be the HG.

As a mortal, I am not even able to do what you request. You are asking me to do something which is the soul (hah!) responsibility of the Holy Ghost.

Truth really is in the proposition. If one proposes that the Christian God exists, the proposition is either true or false. You tend to use truth dealing with what you believe are relevant realities regarding your religious beliefs. I just mention this so you will at least know what most people are talking about when they say truth.

I believe that Truth is everywhere - not just within Christendom. The Holy Ghost reveals Truth to ALL of mankind - regardless of their affilitation with any particular religious institution. For those who do not believe in Christ, the Holy Ghost cannot manifest a witness of Christ. However, this does not mean that a person does not believe in the Christian God. The Jews believe in the God of Abraham; they just do not recognize that He is one and the same Jesus of Christian belief. Other world religions believe in God - though they may not see Him the same way as other religions do. Even pagans believe in God - though they do not currently have a correct understanding of Him. God has not left His children forsaken and abandoned of His love or efforts to turn them in the correct direction. In fact, our righteousness is counted in accordance with our faithfulness to whatever it is we DO believe - regardless of whether what we believe is correct or not. So it is that even Atheists who do good can surprise us and become Exalted - even advancing beyond those who have accepted Christ but who have not remained faithful in living what they believed.

I do not believe that you have to receive a witness of the Holy Ghost during this physical existence in order to be saved or even to achieve Exaltation. I DO believe that if you are able to experience and discern the Holy Ghost while in the flesh, that your joy can be more right here and right now.

Love,

jo

[_Franktalk]

I do not view anything I think as incorrect as a lie.

So what does this mean?

[_Chap]

I do not view anything I think as incorrect as a lie.

So what does this mean?

From the context, it was clearly intended to be:

I do not view everything I think is incorrect as a lie.

[_Themis]

I do not view anything I think as incorrect as a lie.

So what does this mean?

As an example I think the Hindu God's do not in reality exist, but I wouldn't say it is a lie since that does not use the word lie correctly. So if a Hindu person tells me that their God's do exist, is this a lie if they believe they do exist. Of course not. I was trying to help you understand how you were using the word was incorrect. A lie is some saying something they know is not true. Like Clinton saying he did not have sexual relations with Monica, or Joseph Smith saying he had only one wife.

Now you probably say the Book of Mormon is true. Now I do not think this is true, but I do not think you are lying when you state your beliefs. Hope this helps.

[_Themis]

Hi Themis!

Okay, you've convinced me to speak more on the issue. I have also offered scripture from both John and Paul on the subject of the Holy Ghost. Inasmuch as Paul, to me, has clearly defined that the Holy Ghost can only be discerned spiritually, I have shared that his writings are good sources for understanding this concept.

All I saw was things one may need to do in preparation, not how one discerns. You could point to the specific verses you think do.

Those who have not experienced, or do not recognize when the Holy Ghost is witnessing or revealing Truth to them, will simply not be able to relate to someone who has---for the very basic reason (which is scriptural - and NOT my original idea) that they have not.

You appear to be admitting that one can have the HG witness to them but not know it. How would you help them to recognize this? What would you tell them. You did say the church does more then any other group to help in this area. Can you point to a scripture, talk, etc from the church? What would a missionary say to an investigator in this regard?

What more can I, as a mortal being, relate to another mortal being, something which can only be understood Spirit to spirit? It is impossible.

You indicated you could, or at least that the church does.

So, all I can DO is share what I have experienced knowing ahead of time that only others who HAVE experienced this will understand what I am talking about.

You actually have not said anything here other then "When I fasted and prayed about the Book of Mormon I received a very powerful witness from the Holy Ghost which seemed to enter me from the top of my head and flowed through my entire body."

Now this is not very descriptive, but I do understand the expereince. The problem here is that you admit that one can get a witness from the HG but not know it, but you then don't provide anything to help them to know it. If they cannot get the same message or interpretation, then how can you be sure you are coming up with the right interpretation for your expereinces?

I did not set these principles; God did. I cannot change them; though I happily share them perchance a seed of desire may blossom at some point and someone WILL "get it".

Unfortunately they do not mess with what the church teaches on the issue.

See the above, as well as my other posts encouraging sincere seeking personally between an individual and God.

I have already shown that there is not any including your posts above. I do know that the church does teach about it, but not sure why you won't use what they teach, or are just not familiar with it.

Perhaps you will feel comfortable in sharing more; I promise not to try to dismantle your words.

What would you want to know?

If you share more, maybe I would be able to see things differently, as then I could see them from your pov.

Ask away, but I know why you think and believe the way you do, from personal experience, so I know in the end you will view everything worldly that does not concern your religious beliefs. I expect some other religious people would view your own religious beliefs as of the world.

I am willing to try - but it is so easy to cross over into fighting. Forgive me if I do.

It's just a discussion, and most discussion usually don't end up in total agreement. I don't worry if people want to think and believe differently. I am not arrogant enough to think I have got everything right.

As a mortal, I am not even able to do what you request. You are asking me to do something which is the soul (hah!) responsibility of the Holy Ghost.

The church teaches the HG responsibility is to testify of truth. It does not teach one who receives a witness will know it is a witness from the HG. The church has a number of articles on how hard it is to discern the HG and what it wants. Are you unaware of this?

I believe that Truth is everywhere - not just within Christendom. The Holy Ghost reveals Truth to ALL of mankind - regardless of their affilitation with any particular religious institution. For those who do not believe in Christ, the Holy Ghost cannot manifest a witness of Christ.

Which means that truth is still in the proposition. I do think your statement that the HG cannot manifest to someone who does not believe in Christ to be very problematic, and is not supported by LDS teachings. Is it reasonable for a Hindu person to start believing in Christ because a couple of pimple faced Elders say it is so? If yes, then it would be reasonable to believe anything anyone says to you.

Other world religions believe in God - though they may not see Him the same way as other religions do. Even pagans believe in God - though they do not currently have a correct understanding of Him.

Not really, but you would need to study what they believe a little more. It also does not deal with the atheist or agnostic person.

So it is that even Atheists who do good can surprise us and become Exalted - even advancing beyond those who have accepted Christ but who have not remained faithful in living what they believed.

Not exalted though. They would still have to accept the gospel, but without evidence or a witness from the HG it is not fair or reasonable for them to believe LDS claims in this life or the next.

[_emilysmith]

I am not so inclined to share my religious journey on this forum at this time, but it boils down to this...

I investigated the LDS first, because that is how I was raised. When that didn't work, I investigated all of the others. Nothing spoke to me. I again tried with the church, but, by the time I was 15, I knew, with certainty, that it was all BS and that the only truth to be found would be in the common thread between all religions.

This common thread would be the only logical explanation because, if God was at all fair, then divinity should be accessible to everyone whether they had seen a Bible in their lifetime or not. If God was not fair, then he was not worth worshiping.

In the end, I think religion is largely misguided by people afraid of change, but has some useful applications. Unfortunately, visceral, meaningful religious experiences are unavailable to anyone in any mainstream religion because they have sanitized everything in religion worth experiencing.

Today, my stance is that of an atheist. That does not make me immune to having spiritual feelings from time to time, but awe and wonder come easy enough under a cloudless night full of stars.

If you sincerely believe in Christianity, then I would encourage you to read works of any of the female Christian mystics and then try to figure out why they are wrong and everyone else is right. Clearly, (of the ones whose works survived) they all lead a more spiritual life than most Christians today. I imagine it was easier back then, in an environment without an easy material explanation for nearly everything that goes on.