UFO: The Greatest Story Ever Denied.

[_Ray A]

The trouble with the whole subject of UFO's are sightings like this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41988214/ns/local_news-portland_or/

Things are so easy to fake that it's very hard to believe any sightings. They're just going to have to land in Central Park and give media interviews.

As I mentioned in my blog post, the media always publish the easiest cases to debunk. They have published unresolved sightings too, though. I can assure you that what we saw was no kite, or kites. Not even close. The "Kite UFO" was resolved. Now let's deal with the unresolved ones, like New Zealand 1979, when a UFO was followed by an aircraft and photographed by journalists from the Australian media. The New Zealand goverment have released their UFO files. That's what people should be scrutinising, not discredited tabloid media reports.

[_Quasimodo]

The "Kite UFO" was resolved. Now let's deal with the unresolved ones, like New Zealand 1979, when a UFO was followed by an aircraft and photographed by journalists from the Australian media. The New Zealand goverment have released their UFO files. That's what people should be scrutinising, not discredited tabloid media reports.

I understand your point. There are some very interesting reports that are unresolved. And, I've had my own experiences.

What I was saying is that unless something concrete surfaces, it always going to be a fascinating subject with no resolution. The media does love to run UFO stories because most people are interested. They also take a certain "evil glee" in running stories like the one I linked.

There needs to be something solid before we can get much beyond speculation.

[_Ray A]

I understand your point. There are some very interesting reports that are unresolved. And, I've had my own experiences.

People who have had experiences tend to be much more open minded. The scoffers are only scoffers until they see something they can't explain. They may not become "believers", but they certainly have more open minds.

What I was saying is that unless something concrete surfaces, it always going to be a fascinating subject with no resolution. The media does love to run UFO stories because most people are interested. They also take a certain "evil glee" in running stories like the one I linked.

There needs to be something solid before we can get much beyond speculation.

I do agree that something really spectacular could change all that, but this is far more complicated than little green men landing on the presidential lawn and saying, "take us to your leader", while the world media capture everything.

Sgt. Clifford Stone worked on the "black vault" top secret projects, and if you search You Tube you'll find out what he says about face to face encounters with aliens, and actually communicating with them. This was part of his work in the military, not a hobby. He is not the only one. The Disclosure Project only skims the bare surface of what former "insiders" have revealed, because they became disgusted with the secrecy, and the $millions that are being poured into projects and committees that have zero accountability to Congress, and even override the president. Now you can call Stone a crank, a lunatic or a liar, but his revelations match what many others have said. I think reasonable people should at least keep an open mind about all this.

[_Quasimodo]

I think reasonable people should at least keep an open mind about all this.

I'll hunt down Stone and see what he has to say.

It takes good evidence to believe in something. It also takes good evidence to disbelieve. Everyone should be in the "I don't know" category until reliable evidence, one way or the other, is available. That's where I am.

It's doubtful that there ever will be evidence that it is not true (how could there be?). I'd be very happy if reliable evidence of aliens does turn up. I'll wait to make up my mind.

[_Ray A]

I'll hunt down Stone and see what he has to say.

It takes good evidence to believe in something. It also takes good evidence to disbelieve. Everyone should be in the "I don't know" category until reliable evidence, one way or the other, is available. That's where I am.

It's doubtful that there ever will be evidence that it is not true (how could there be?). I'd be very happy if reliable evidence of aliens does turn up. I'll wait to make up my mind.

No problem. I wish you well in your search for the truth. Am I biased? Without a doubt. In spite of the criticism of the encounter I had, there is no doubt in my mind that we witnessed something that is not easily explainable. Not a single person on this board has provided me with a suitable alternative explanation (though I've asked numerous times), and I have searched for many myself. There are only two possibilities, in the end:

1) They were aliens.

2) They were craft piloted by humans with advanced technology which is not only unknown to the masses, but even "conventional" science. If we have this sort of technology, then I must have missed something in Aviation News, or at the latest airshows.

[_Ray A]

A few weeks ago I caught a repeat episode on the History Channel about WW2's Nazi space engineering. It fascinated me. Did you catch it?

http://www.iwatchdocumentaries.com/documenatries/discovery-channel-nazi-ufo-conspiracy-2010/

Just a warning to readers of this thread (would that be about three or four?), if you click on the above link, DO NOT download the codec; it is malware, and a virus, and is difficult to get rid of.

If you want to view the documentary, go to You Tube:

History Channel - Nazi UFOs -Part1-.

The "evidence" in it isn't very convincing anyway.

[_Quasimodo]

Thanks for the heads up, Ray. I do my work from this computer (in the middle of a big job now). The last thing I need right now is a pesky malware.

[_ShadowFax]

A few weeks ago I caught a repeat episode on the History Channel about WW2's Nazi space engineering. It fascinated me. Did you catch it?

http://www.iwatchdocumentaries.com/documenatries/discovery-channel-nazi-ufo-conspiracy-2010/

Just a warning to readers of this thread (would that be about three or four?), if you click on the above link, DO NOT download the codec; it is malware, and a virus, and is difficult to get rid of.

If you want to view the documentary, go to You Tube:

History Channel - Nazi UFOs -Part1-.

The "evidence" in it isn't very convincing anyway.

I didn’t realize there was a bug attached to that download.

As to your “not convinced” remark, I’m at a loss to understand why you weren’t impressed by the documentary? It suggests that German Nazis translated designs from thousands of year old ancient India texts to make flying machines with highly advanced technology. If nothing else it might impress you that there was technology utilized by civilization thousands of years ago which could be deciphered by German engineers and ask questions as to how or why this technology was recorded thousands of years ago; perhaps helping to at least open the mind to questions.

If the German Nazi science wasn’t convincing evidence how can you criticize others on this thread for finding fault or skeptical analysis when you yourself do? I’m at a loss to know what exactly you want people to tell you. What would make you happy at this point? You’ve remarked that “ex”Mormons don’t appear open minded on this thread and criticize them for that, but are you unable to understand how that is a most practical stance based on any current information when you yourself are skeptical. Surely you must be able to see how people who have not had a visual encounter as yourself would have a difficult time with this idea considering lack of evidence made public by world leaders?


I did a little searching on the topic today to see if I could dig up new information and came across information on a recent February ufo convention in Arizona. Interested to see what was said on the topic I googled and accidentally landed upon an interview with one of the speakers, Dr. Alexander. He apparently is promoting his book called UFOs: Myths, Conspiracies, and Realities.
I came upon an interview by Dr. Alexander who claims that there is a lot of hoaxes and that Presidents have disclosed that ufo’s are real.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=948BW7irLCw

If it is true that presidents have disclosed that there are ufo’s then it hasn’t been adequately presented to the public. It’s the first I’ve heard of this. I’m not really big on conspiracy theories but I may buy his book if he looks at it in a critical way.

information on his book:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X85XhyAZzWw&tracker=False&NR=1

[_Ray A]

As to your “not convinced” remark, I’m at a loss to understand why you weren’t impressed by the documentary? It suggests that German Nazis translated designs from thousands of year old ancient India texts to make flying machines with highly advanced technology. If nothing else it might impress you that there was technology utilized by civilization thousands of years ago which could be deciphered by German engineers and ask questions as to how or why this technology was recorded thousands of years ago; perhaps helping to at least open the mind to questions.

If the German Nazi science wasn’t convincing evidence how can you criticize others on this thread for finding fault or skeptical analysis when you yourself do? I’m at a loss to know what exactly you want people to tell you. What would make you happy at this point? You’ve remarked that “ex”Mormons don’t appear open minded on this thread and criticize them for that, but are you unable to understand how that is a most practical stance based on any current information when you yourself are skeptical. Surely you must be able to see how people who have not had a visual encounter as yourself would have a difficult time with this idea considering lack of evidence made public by world leaders?

The video wasn't convincing, in my opinion, but that's not to say a more detailed analysis might not be. Don't confuse my opinion of the video as the final verdict, just the video itself. Sorry I can't say much more on this now but my time is short for the next few hours, but maybe I'll explain more later.

I did a little searching on the topic today to see if I could dig up new information and came across information on a recent February ufo convention in Arizona. Interested to see what was said on the topic I googled and accidentally landed upon an interview with one of the speakers, Dr. Alexander. He apparently is promoting his book called UFOs: Myths, Conspiracies, and Realities.
I came upon an interview by Dr. Alexander who claims that there is a lot of hoaxes and that Presidents have disclosed that ufo’s are real.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=948BW7irLCw

It will be a book worth reading, but just from hearing that interview I can tell you he's wrong on a number of significant points, but maybe more later. He was interviewed by Above Top Secret (ATS), and you can see comments, both favourable and unfavourable (some of which reflect my opinion) at:

Interview With Dr. John Alexander: ATS at the 2011 UFO Conference in Arizona.

If it is true that presidents have disclosed that there are ufo’s then it hasn’t been adequately presented to the public. It’s the first I’ve heard of this. I’m not really big on conspiracy theories but I may buy his book if he looks at it in a critical way.

information on his book:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X85XhyAZzWw&tracker=False&NR=1

I'll make the same point one of the posters on ATS made: his observation is very superficial. Of course Truman, Carter and Reagan have talked about UFOs (and other presidents). If you watched The Disclosure Project (or the video I posted in the OP) you'll see that "top secret" information has been withheld from them. You have to do a far more thorough analysis of this. Many of the insiders (speaking out) talk about top secret information which was even withheld from high military officials, and there being a "core" which knows the facts. Remember the levels of secrecy? How do we know they exist? Sgt. Clifford Stone was one of them. As for Alexander's call for more people to speak out, he must be missing something. He claims the idea of an alien moon base is "nonsense", but listen to

Sgt. Karl Wolf at The Disclosure Project.

What does Alexander make of that, I wonder? He asks for witness evidence, and there you have witness evidence (and Wolf is by no means the only one to have made the claim). Of course more evidence would be better. by the way, any guesses as to why America has not been back to the moon, when their original plan was to build a moon base/station? I guess we can all speculate on that. What will happen if they land on Mars and find a base there too? Next stop - Venus?

[_Ray A]

Some more replies, Shadow.

As to your “not convinced” remark, I’m at a loss to understand why you weren’t impressed by the documentary? It suggests that German Nazis translated designs from thousands of year old ancient India texts to make flying machines with highly advanced technology. If nothing else it might impress you that there was technology utilized by civilization thousands of years ago which could be deciphered by German engineers and ask questions as to how or why this technology was recorded thousands of years ago; perhaps helping to at least open the mind to questions.

I agree, and I'll look into this some more, preferably from sourced online articles. "Ancient advanced technology" isn't a new notion, but I'll have to take a closer look at this claim in regard to the Nazis.

If the German Nazi science wasn’t convincing evidence how can you criticize others on this thread for finding fault or skeptical analysis when you yourself do? I’m at a loss to know what exactly you want people to tell you. What would make you happy at this point?

To be frank, I don't think too many on this board take me seriously in this regard anyway. I've already been referred to as some kind of "mushroom eater" and "drunk", and the mockery has come in spades.

You’ve remarked that “ex”Mormons don’t appear open minded on this thread and criticize them for that, but are you unable to understand how that is a most practical stance based on any current information when you yourself are skeptical. Surely you must be able to see how people who have not had a visual encounter as yourself would have a difficult time with this idea considering lack of evidence made public by world leaders?

I think I can understand that. What I was referring to was:

A Note from a Clown:

WARREN ASTON: Travel agent and UFO expert. No formal training. Aston runs a travel agency (Bountiful Tours) that conducts tours to Arabia after discovering what Terryl Givens and Daniel Peterson consider to be the strongest archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon. In his book “By The Hand of Mormon,” Terryl Givens touts Aston’s work as “the first actual archaeological evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon.”

Aston is also an internationally recognized “expert” on UFOs. Aston speaking at a UFO Symposium http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NikV6YDW4Lk Aston claiming UFO cover-up at Pine Gap (US military base in Australia) http://www.ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/auforn4.shtml Aston’s tour company http://www.bountifultours.com/tour.html

Here is another individual that Dr. Southerton indicates is an apologist “clown” who, undoubtedly, would not label himself as an apologist. Perhaps this is Dr. Southerton’s way of dismissing the geographic verification of Nahom in 1994 by Mr. Aston.

I’ve read past comments by Dr. Southerton where he objects to being labeled a “plant geneticist” when discussing DNA issues because he feels that the phrase is used as a way to dismiss his contribution to the topic. (As in ‘plant geneticists don’t have the credentials to discuss ancient human DNA.’) And, yet, here we have Dr. Southerton utilizing the same tactic which he deplores by labeling Mr. Aston a “UFO expert” as a way to discredit anything he may have to contribute on the matter of Book of Mormon archaeology.

I came upon an interview by Dr. Alexander who claims that there is a lot of hoaxes and that Presidents have disclosed that ufo’s are real.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=948BW7irLCw

Dr. Alexander isn't proclaiming anything new. I have already said that this field is littered with hoaxes. In fact I posted on ATS giving my opinion that the Jerusalem "UFO" was a hoax, and that thread was later consigned to "Hoaxes" after unanimous agreement. I've also said that UFO studies is a complex and complicated field, even more so than Mormonism, in my opinion, and the participants in this field involves a worldwide network of "interested observers", and not something provincial to an interested few. Not everyone who posts on ATS is a "UFO fanatic", and there are many working in this field to discredit Ufologists, very possibly also government assigned debunkers, but it's not limited to that.

I’m not really big on conspiracy theories but I may buy his book if he looks at it in a critical way.

You'll also need to look at Timothy Good's Above Top Secret: The Worldwide U.F.O. Cover-Up and compare the two.