Spirituality or just emotion...?

[_Franktalk]

Sheryl,

It is obvious to me that the physical mind is a subset of the spiritual mind and the spiritual mind has connections to other minds and raw physical matter. It is our own limitations that prevent us from exercising the pathways to those other realms. If our physical consciousness is allowed to rule then all progress is stopped. Oh the people in this state think they are truly on top of truth and are very happy with their physical world. It is so frustrating to watch even from my grossly limited space. I can't imagine how Christ could handle all of those around Him being so attached to the thing He made and ignoring the path which in time would lead to conquering the physical realm with spiritual authority. It makes perfect sense that He would view little children as an example of who to be like. Unspoiled by the physical world and unchained to the physical boundry. Yet His love for all of us drove Him to offer His life so we could have an easier path to a spiritual life. Forgiveness instead of punishment for the asking.

[_sheryl]

Sheryl,

It is obvious to me that the physical mind is a subset of the spiritual mind and the spiritual mind has connections to other minds and raw physical matter. It is our own limitations that prevent us from exercising the pathways to those other realms. If our physical consciousness is allowed to rule then all progress is stopped. Oh the people in this state think they are truly on top of truth and are very happy with their physical world. It is so frustrating to watch even from my grossly limited space. I can't imagine how Christ could handle all of those around Him being so attached to the thing He made and ignoring the path which in time would lead to conquering the physical realm with spiritual authority. It makes perfect sense that He would view little children as an example of who to be like. Unspoiled by the physical world and unchained to the physical boundry. Yet His love for all of us drove Him to offer His life so we could have an easier path to a spiritual life. Forgiveness instead of punishment for the asking.

Indeed Frank. Thank you for your words.

I find it odd that some people of science speak as though they have knowledge of all spirituality, and know that it is all false or deluded. Actually it sounds as though they are actually trying to convince themselves that they are right!

And it appears that they worship knowledge and won't let the possibility that someone has more knowledge than they stand, and so they must crush it. As though they can make spiritual knowledge obsolete with their words! As though they can bring down reality with their denial of it!

Blessings to you and yours.

Sheryl

[_DrW]

Sheryl,

If you are so certain of the existence of knowledge imparted by the spirit, why not go ahead and provide one single example of such knowledge as I suggested before?

It is all well and good to go around claiming that you have all of this magical spiritual knowledge.

I claim that the kind of knowledge you are describing are is imagined, rooted in emotion, does not objectively exist, and that it is therefore of no practical external value whatsoever.

Again, I challenge you to provide a single piece of credible evidence that this "knowledge" (or as Michael Shirmer terms it, "woo-woo") in anything but imaginary.

[_emilysmith]

I worship nothing. I suspend all judgement and operate according to the best information available.

I find it odd that someone from such a limited subset of a religion would be so dismissive of what others may know about spirituality. By the time I graduated high school, I had investigated all mainstream religions and many obscure ones. I have had religious experiences of a far greater magnitude compared to anything your typical Mormon has access to.

Mainstream religion has sanitized and pacified the more extreme and primal experiences available to the spiritually-minded. From praying, to meditating, to speaking in tongues, to shamanic ceremonies, to kava circles and even light-in-the-tunnel experiences; I have tried them all with an open mind.

I made quite an intellectual pursuit of it all, actually. That is the greatest enemy of organized religion, because it is all built on a house of cards. The spirituality you have access to in the Mormon Church is a shadow of what the ecstatics and mystics have to offer.

Think about that. Being reverent and opening up your heart is nothing compared to what being irreverent and opening up your mind can accomplish. I could go into great detail, but the sum of my knowledge about spiritual experiences isn't important as the most obvious of conclusions.

The organized religions are wrong and have sought to control information about what we are supposed to be perceiving so that they can continue to make money. From a trip on LSD to a Buddhist monk in meditation, true religious experiences all result in one feeling, one message in different degrees; which is that there is an interconnectedness between all people, all life and everything else. That is it. Whatever else you see, hear or interpret is suspect. Science only reaffirms and demonstrates this interconnectedness.

Scientific knowledge also puts our feelings and our attempt to rationalize them into perspective. Spirituality is more important than any religion, because that is actually what makes better people.

It doesn't prove that it actually exists, though. It proves that people are better behaved when they perceive that everyone is connected in some way; when the mirror neurons fire and we empathize with the world, at large.

Spiritual knowledge as set forth by the Bible and the Book of Mormon are obsolete. Absolutely, positively. If they weren't obsolete, we would be living by those laws, today. Why do we not? It isn't because we aren't ready, it is because our culture has brought a deeper awareness with the passage of time and exchange of information.

If there is a true religion, it is the one that all people of every race have access to. Such a thing does not exist, so any reasonable person must turn to science to make sense of the world around them.

The culture that provides explanations for all other cultures is kind of like a meta-culture. That is what science provides us... a culture that everyone has access to by learning the consistent, natural laws of the universe. The explanations that I and others have set forth solves every theological problem and every conflict between different spiritual groups. These are perfectly legitimate explanations backed up by modern tools of observation and a modern approach to thinking about other people.

[_sheryl]

Sheryl,

If you are so certain of the existence of knowledge imparted by the spirit, why not go ahead and provide one single example of such knowledge as I suggested before?

It is all well and good to go around claiming that you have all of this magical spiritual knowledge.

I claim that the kind of knowledge you are describing are is imagined, rooted in emotion, does not objectively exist, and that it is therefore of no practical external value whatsoever.

Again, I challenge you to provide a single piece of credible evidence that this "knowledge" (or as Michael Shirmer terms it, "woo-woo") in anything but imaginary.

I believe that all knowledge is imparted by spirit, only many claim that they are the source of knowledge without realizing that it was gifted to them by God. I also believe that all true knowledge is from experience. So I cannot give you knowledge by telling you about my experiences, that would only be telling you about my knowledge.

If you want proof that knowledge comes from Spirit, think, feel, do, experience - all these are gifts from God in how he/she imparts Da'at or Gnosis (knowledge through experience) to his/her creation.

To see how God imparts knowledge is another gift that God bestows upon creation, to those who hunger and thirst to know, or to draw near.

Inspiration, realization, cognitive thinking, inward experiences coming from meditation of higher realms - all these and more are the means through which God imparts knowledge.

I imagine that you, DrW, believe that you through the thinking ability that you acquired for yourself, eg brain, and your mundane senses which of course you created and gave to yourself, acquired what you know. I offer at the least, you should give credit to your parents - who caused the brain you think with, the eyes you see with, the ears you hear with, etc, to come into being - for all knowledge that you have.

Peace be with you.

Sheryl

[_sheryl]

Hi emilysmith,

There are many in this world who still live by the essence of the law called Torah, or the spirit behind it, and more, and who experience the same that the prophets of the Bible experienced and the disciples of the New Testament, and more.

The Bible is not outdated. The problem is that it is viewed through an outdated perspective, what we call surface consciousness, which is akin the the brown outer skin of an onion. We need to deny self - or put aside the archaic perspective to find and receive the new.

Blessings to you, and yes, there are abundant spiritual experiences to be had by those who hunger and thirst to draw near to God.

Blessings!

Sheryl

[_Franktalk]

Sheryl,

Just where does knowledge come from? Are we born with all knowledge and we just unfold it? Or do we seek outside of ourself for knowledge? I think the obvious answer is that we seek outside ourself. But why is it that once a truth is found that we feel that we knew it all along, we feel that had we just looked at the world differently we could have obtained the truth ourself? Many before us have struggled with this reality. It is this feeling of self that many embrace. It does not matter that others have struggled through the ages so that we could come into existence in this world. When these people of the world look back in time they only see themself. They consider the past an accident so that all value is contained in the last point on the trail. That means of course that all value rolls up into their own consciousness. But they stop there. The logical end of that thinking is that all players in the line are worthless including themself. It is the process in the end that has value and not the life of the individual. I think that many live a lie thinking that they have value yet their own beliefs take that value away. It is only in the spiritual does the idea of self obtain a logical form. The spirit had value before coming into this world and it will have greater value once it leaves this world. The knowledge that one obtains is just a small connection to all knowledge which is available in the spirit world. Many who embrace this world run from the idea of becoming one with Father. They think that this path leads to the destruction of the self yet in reality it leads to an expansion of self to include all things.

Anyway just some thoughts at 230 am.

Frank

[_emilysmith]

What if the self is really the evolved ability to predict behavior and emotions in others turned inward?

[_sheryl]

Sheryl,

Just where does knowledge come from? Are we born with all knowledge and we just unfold it? Or do we seek outside of ourself for knowledge? I think the obvious answer is that we seek outside ourself. But why is it that once a truth is found that we feel that we knew it all along, we feel that had we just looked at the world differently we could have obtained the truth ourself? Many before us have struggled with this reality. It is this feeling of self that many embrace. It does not matter that others have struggled through the ages so that we could come into existence in this world. When these people of the world look back in time they only see themself. They consider the past an accident so that all value is contained in the last point on the trail. That means of course that all value rolls up into their own consciousness. But they stop there. The logical end of that thinking is that all players in the line are worthless including themself. It is the process in the end that has value and not the life of the individual. I think that many live a lie thinking that they have value yet their own beliefs take that value away. It is only in the spiritual does the idea of self obtain a logical form. The spirit had value before coming into this world and it will have greater value once it leaves this world. The knowledge that one obtains is just a small connection to all knowledge which is available in the spirit world. Many who embrace this world run from the idea of becoming one with Father. They think that this path leads to the destruction of the self yet in reality it leads to an expansion of self to include all things.

Anyway just some thoughts at 230 am.

Frank

Dear Frank -

You have shared some beautiful insights! This understanding is the path of peace.

Indeed, all knowledge already exists within us. Even if one does not believe in a source of all things, or a God of some sort, it is still logical that within our DNA, within the molecules of dust that comprise our body, is all knowledge of what dust is and of its journey to today. So that physics is the discovery of what already is. The knowledge itself already exists. It does not belong to us, no more than the stars we gaze upon at night belong to us.

We can even talk about these things without speaking of 'God' per se. It is understandable that there is a rejection of the God taught in most publicly known religions by those of science, because yes that limited perspective of God does not match what is being discovered, but there are those who walk in this world with a more complete understanding and experience of God, who delight in scientific discovery for it is providing the proof to the masses of what the Holy Ones have been teaching for thousands of years.

If I were a seeker of Truth, I would be curious about these individuals and what they teach, but if I have made myself my own God, holding myself up as the source of my knowledge, I would probably steer far from such individuals, I would be afraid of such individuals, for they are a threat to the image I hold of myself. And indeed they are.

Just as you have offered, dear friend, it is not 'us' that has value, but this line that you describe,we more akin to a receptor or transmitter. The Bible calls us temples. My tradition, like mystical Judaism, calls us merkavah or chariots - we are meant to embody and carry infinite wisdom, understanding, and knowledge, accessing as you describe this habad or sacred Reality.

It is my desire to tell our scientific friends that all knowledge and understanding of all things is available, within us and without us, through connecting or rather awakening to the spirit that already exists within us. Touching and bringing in what we call Thunder Intelligence. But alas such cannot happen without purification, for those who seek for themselves alone, to prove themselves right, or powerful, will not find this. Only those who seek to receive so that they might give for the benefit of all - in other words are pure in heart - will find.

For those who have read the Bible, but have not found what it teaches in any religion, concluding that religions are false, hypocritical, often concluding that the Bible must be false as well, I offer, do not give up hope, for what the Bible teaches does exist, it is only when the Revelation of Jesus was taken over by a world power (Constantine) it was stripped of Light Presence and Power. The LDS claims to be the restoration of this upon the earth, and while we may see more of what we expect to see within the Mormon Church, in the end they too do not carry the Light Presence and Power in fullness and also are false and hypocritical. But the true does exist. Before we are led to find it though, a hunger for the Truth must be awakened in us, and a certain level of purity be accomplished, for only the pure in heart, the merciful, the poor in spirit, etc. can receive what God has in store for Creation, God being the Source of all, the source of our Being and our Becoming, therefore existing at our essence of who we are, creation unfolding from the Source. Science has pretty much proven that God cannot be a separate entity over there, and creation over here. Science has and continues to prove that dualistic thinking, separative thinking is false.

Thank you for sharing, my friend.

Peace be within you.

Sheryl

[_sheryl]

What if the self is really the evolved ability to predict behavior and emotions in others turned inward?

Hi emilysmith!

This is part of the true self - being able to discern energy and prophesy what that energy will manifest in the future. These are the more subtle aspects of our emotional and mental bodies, which require purification of our outer consciousness, so that it stills, is silent, allowing us to perceive with our subtle senses, our spiritual senses.

Peace be within you.

Sheryl