Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

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_Jason Bourne
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Re: Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Runtu wrote:
It's not a matter of accepting it or not. I understand the reasons why the church insists on its own definition of "official doctrine." But you are incorrect in saying it is a long-established process. Correlation began in 1971, and since that time it is the correlation committee that determines the doctrinal validity of what goes into church publications. The big 15 don't have much to do with it at all.

I am fine letting the church define its own doctrine, and I think I have a pretty good handle on what that doctrine is. That said, if absolutely nothing pre-1971 is considered doctrine unless it's been through the post-1971 correlation process (which is exactly the church's policy), then there's something else going on besides the brethren establishing and declaring doctrine.

Is something published in December 1970 in the Improvement Era--at the time the official church magazine--doctrine? Not according to the church, which is why the church's web site includes only publications after 1971.



But this really ends up with an odd result. Nothing before 1971, or 141 years of teaching and none of it is doctrine unless it goes through the correlation machine? What it it was published in an official source such as your example of the December 1970 Improvement Era? I struggle with that concept. I guess the Church can argue that nothing pre 1971 that has not been approved is official doctrine NOW and TODAY. But it cannot argue that things the Church taught and published pre 1971 were not doctrinal for the Church at that time. Thus for example, Adam God, which was published in the Millennial Star cannot be simply dismissed as opinion even if the Church does not accept it today.
_Drifting
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Re: Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

Post by _Drifting »

subgenius wrote:sure there can be confusion between inspiration and opinion at times


So, people could be confused about wether the Prophet is speaking as a man or speaking as the Prophet under inspiration.
That's really not very good is it.

Everyone marry lots of wives....whoops, speaking as a man
Stop the blacks from having the Priesthood....whoops, speaking as a man
Adam is God...whoops, speaking as a man
The hill Cumorah is in New York...whoops, speaking as a man
The Church us going through a Kirtland style apostasy...whoops, speaking as a man
I don't know that we teach God was once a man...whoops, speaking as a man
Everything Elder Poelman said in 1984...whoops, speaking as a man
We don't have a paid clergy...whoops, speaking as a man
Translated by the Urim & Thummim...whoops,
Arthur Patton died quickly...whoops,
Whoops...
Whoops...
Whoops...

For crying out loud - easier if the Ensign published a sort of Prophets Greatest Hits listing the statements that they got right.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Runtu
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Re: Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

Post by _Runtu »

Jason Bourne wrote:But this really ends up with an odd result. Nothing before 1971, or 141 years of teaching and none of it is doctrine unless it goes through the correlation machine? What it it was published in an official source such as your example of the December 1970 Improvement Era? I struggle with that concept. I guess the Church can argue that nothing pre 1971 that has not been approved is official doctrine NOW and TODAY. But it cannot argue that things the Church taught and published pre 1971 were not doctrinal for the Church at that time. Thus for example, Adam God, which was published in the Millennial Star cannot be simply dismissed as opinion even if the Church does not accept it today.


Correct. Correlation allows the church to sift through 140 years of official doctrine and dismiss any it wants to. As you mention, Adam-God was taught in conference, published in church publications, and taught as part of the lecture at the veil. You can't get much more official than that without canonizing it. But today it is not doctrine because later church leaders rejected it, and since it was published before Correlation, they can say, not official.

It is a cop-out, plain and simple. What prophets taught and teach matters.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Drifting
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Re: Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

Post by _Drifting »

Runtu wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:But this really ends up with an odd result. Nothing before 1971, or 141 years of teaching and none of it is doctrine unless it goes through the correlation machine? What it it was published in an official source such as your example of the December 1970 Improvement Era? I struggle with that concept. I guess the Church can argue that nothing pre 1971 that has not been approved is official doctrine NOW and TODAY. But it cannot argue that things the Church taught and published pre 1971 were not doctrinal for the Church at that time. Thus for example, Adam God, which was published in the Millennial Star cannot be simply dismissed as opinion even if the Church does not accept it today.


Correct. Correlation allows the church to sift through 140 years of official doctrine and dismiss any it wants to. As you mention, Adam-God was taught in conference, published in church publications, and taught as part of the lecture at the veil. You can't get much more official than that without canonizing it. But today it is not doctrine because later church leaders rejected it, and since it was published before Correlation, they can say, not official.

It is a cop-out, plain and simple. What prophets taught and teach matters.


It won't be too long before the official canon content looks like anti Mormon material.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_subgenius
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Re: Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

Post by _subgenius »

Runtu wrote:Then why did you say that the prophet does not have the right to tell us he's had a revelation and we should accept it?

I did not say that.
i simply responded to the rather outlandish and mis-characterizing claim of
A prophet can say anything he wants and claim it's revelation
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Runtu
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Re: Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

Post by _Runtu »

subgenius wrote:I did not say that.
i simply responded to the rather outlandish and mis-characterizing claim of
A prophet can say anything he wants and claim it's revelation


But then you said you placed no restrictions on what a prophet could say is revelation. What I meant is that prophets have on many occasions said they received by revelation things that the church no longer believes. Adam-God is a good example.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_subgenius
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Re: Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

Post by _subgenius »

Drifting wrote:
subgenius wrote:sure there can be confusion between inspiration and opinion at times


So, people could be confused about wether the Prophet is speaking as a man or speaking as the Prophet under inspiration.
That's really not very good is it.

Everyone marry lots of wives....whoops, speaking as a man
Stop the blacks from having the Priesthood....whoops, speaking as a man
Adam is God...whoops, speaking as a man
The hill Cumorah is in New York...whoops, speaking as a man
The Church us going through a Kirtland style apostasy...whoops, speaking as a man
I don't know that we teach God was once a man...whoops, speaking as a man
Everything Elder Poelman said in 1984...whoops, speaking as a man
We don't have a paid clergy...whoops, speaking as a man
Translated by the Urim & Thummim...whoops,
Arthur Patton died quickly...whoops,
Whoops...
Whoops...
Whoops...

For crying out loud - easier if the Ensign published a sort of Prophets Greatest Hits listing the statements that they got right.

wow, you really are like the gnat...flying quick into the spider's web.
You act as if the possibility that people could be confused is some sort of earth shattering event that has never been experienced before.
First, i never implied that "people" means all people all the time. My goodness, people misunderstand various things at various times and places...regardless of subject, whether science, religion, or the rules for chess.
Your insistence that a prophet be 100 percent accurate is rather immature, and quite honestly, ignorant. Even Jesus got some prophecies incorrect.
Aside from that, wow, your posts have seemingly nothing more to offer than a bitter and cynical discourse on a subject that you admit you do not want "anything to do with".

as a gnat to the lion that is the church, you might benefit from the following fable
http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/milowinter/37.htm

Image
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Yoda

Re: Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

Post by _Yoda »

Subgenius wrote: Even Jesus got some prophecies incorrect.


CFR
_subgenius
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Re: Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

Post by _subgenius »

Runtu wrote:
subgenius wrote:But then you said you placed no restrictions on what a prophet could say is revelation. What I meant is that prophets have on many occasions said they received by revelation things that the church no longer believes. Adam-God is a good example.

actually i said i would not place restrictions "on a prophet if he says something and claims it was revealed to him" - in response to the question you posted.
this is hardly the same as
"A prophet can say anything he wants and claim it's revelation"
There is an assumption you are making that is simply not justified by history nor fact.
believe it or not church members are not lemmings.
Sure we can talk about how BY got off the reservation, its kinda fun, but in the context of his presidency its a different discussion.
Though you would try to cloud the meaning of revelation with the meaning of propaganda you forget that many members have a clear understanding of both.
So, to posture yourself as the only enlightened feller in the room is a rather arrogant position, when in fact you are simply a person who made different choices from and the same choices as anyone else.


That being said, by what measure would you assume revelation?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_subgenius
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Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

Post by _subgenius »

liz3564 wrote:
Subgenius wrote: Even Jesus got some prophecies incorrect.


CFR

?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
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