Science proves life after death

[_Themis]

How about an amputee. Should they spend their days praying God will heal them with a real limb, or would it be better to be skeptical and go about helping the scientific community learn how to grow one? Has God ever healed a missing limb?

How about cancer. If two people get cancer and one prays and prays they will be healed, while the other gets motivated to help raise money for cancer research, who is likely to have more positive affect on the world?

Faith is a little bit like an electron. One might not do much, but they are foundation of power, (give or take some.)

More faith gives more motivation.

As for limbs. We are making limbs for people. I've seen some printed out on 3D printers at home. Yes, those are the answers to prayer.

A short story: about 5 years ago my sister was diagnosed with stage 4 brain cancer. Another female about the same age, (a friend of a friend) was diagnosed with stage 4 brain cancer.

Both were given 3-6 months to live. Both had doctors and used alternative medicine. My sister had a small army praying for her. She was the 1 in 20 survivor. The other lady died. My sister had people applying prayer technology that she participated in.

3 years later, her surgeon asked about how she thought she had survived. His friend had gotten the same cancer and she was the miracle he wanted to understand.

Prosthetic's are not real limbs, and they didn't get them from praying. They got them from people who applied their brains to coming up with solutions. No supernatural in sight. That is the point you are ignoring about people praying to get healed from God. Try to stay on topic. So now, who is more influential in the world? The one who just prays or the one who goes out and raises money and attention to the problem?

[_SPG]

Prosthetic's are not real limbs, and they didn't get them from praying. They got them from people who applied their brains to coming up with solutions. No supernatural in sight. That is the point you are ignoring about people praying to get healed from God. Try to stay on topic. So now, who is more influential in the world? The one who just prays or the one who goes out and raises money and attention to the problem?

Not real? What is real? Flesh and bone? How long until we can do that?

And trust me, people do pray for them. They might pray for their "original limb" and the prosthetic limb is what they get. People of science think that because people pray that they expect the original limb to grow back. And I am sure that people do hope, wish, pray, beg, etc, for their limbs to come back. Pray is a strong form of asking. You assume, that people that pray don't apply their brain, and think that they don't have to. You assume that people who pray will only accept a supernatural solution to their need.

If someone lost and limb, but didn't want a new one, how many people would try to give them one? Some might have not wanted a prosthetic limb, but few would simply "not wish" to have it back.

I don't really separate God from science. God is the "Living Truth", meaning that God is the science/truth/law of life. What happens, is truth. What is part of life, is part of God. . . . and much that isn't part of life is also part of of God.

There was a crazy phenomenon, (I don't remember the name) that is manifests in primitive tribes in Africa. Basically, (If you build it, they will come.)

But the picture I was cool. Basically, primitive tribes would build wooden looking airplanes out of sticks and branches to mimic what they saw flying overhead. People would be so shocked, they land their planes to take pictures. The tribes believed that in order to get the planes to land, their needed to build an image of them. People only landed, for the most part, to take pictures of the model plane.

There is a name for the phenomenon, but there is evidence that through out history humans have built images of ideas they wanted to manifest. In this case, it worked. The planes did land.

But creating images of God, civilizations have developed and grown.

Science isn't different than God. However, many people that believe in science tend to disbelieve religion, and vice versa. The Science Community is just another cult, thinking they know the truth, just like religion.

I don't care truth comes from, I seek it wherever I can find it. People that pray for God for help very often get it. There is evidence that pray has cured cancer, but it's not probably not as common modern methods. If I had cancer, I would go to a doctor, but I would also go to God. If I had a strong impression that I do something different than the doctors advised, I would do it.

In fact, I did. Just to tell on myself a little. I have several mildly deadly diseases, like, not matter what I did, I couldn't keep my blood sugar under control. I tried to follow the doctors, but it wasn't working. Finally, I went with my gut, and went against the doctors advice, and move toward low carb, high fat, (bad for my heart disease.) My numbers can around fairly quickly, things are looking up for the first time in years. I told my doctors, she said agreed with me, but wouldn't mention it to my previous doctor who still asked after me.

There are large groups of people that defying the doctors, not out of spite, but out of trust in their own abilities to know what is good for them. Many of I talked to have come back from the brink of death. They don't hate doctors, they just know they cannot fully trust them. Faith in self, which is sort of like trust in God, is very important.

[Guest]

duplicate

[_Lemmie]

There was a crazy phenomenon, (I don't remember the name) that is manifests in primitive tribes in Africa. Basically, (If you build it, they will come.)

But the picture I was cool. Basically, primitive tribes would build wooden looking airplanes out of sticks and branches to mimic what they saw flying overhead. People would be so shocked, they land their planes to take pictures. The tribes believed that in order to get the planes to land, their needed to build an image of them. People only landed, for the most part, to take pictures of the model plane.

There is a name for the phenomenon, but there is evidence that through out history humans have built images of ideas they wanted to manifest. In this case, it worked. The planes did land.

Where do you get these fantastical stories??

The popular version of the John Frum story may seem a little whimsical. It's actually quite oversimplified and misstates the actual causes and motivations behind what happened....

[actual history, snipped]

And so it's clear that the John Frum Movement has more to it than just a silly superstition that if you build something that looks like a dock out of bamboo, supply ships will come streaming in. That's how cargo cults are often portrayed, and it's really not a fair description....

[realistic discussion of the phenomena, snipped.]

And so while cargo cults may seem, at first glance, like quaint stone age ignorance, they're actually not entirely irrational. They're certainly naïve and based on a fallacious confusion of correlation and causation, but to give their believers some credit, they're doing their best to make sense of what they've been given. Where this belief system fails them, quite obviously, is that it replaces the need to work hard to achieve goals with the belief that faith will provide. https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4199

[_Quasimodo]

There was a crazy phenomenon, (I don't remember the name) that is manifests in primitive tribes in Africa. Basically, (If you build it, they will come.)

But the picture I was cool. Basically, primitive tribes would build wooden looking airplanes out of sticks and branches to mimic what they saw flying overhead. People would be so shocked, they land their planes to take pictures. The tribes believed that in order to get the planes to land, their needed to build an image of them. People only landed, for the most part, to take pictures of the model plane.

There is a name for the phenomenon, but there is evidence that through out history humans have built images of ideas they wanted to manifest. In this case, it worked. The planes did land.

Just a note: Cargo cults evolved in Vanuatu (not Africa). Vanuatu was once called the New Hebrides Islands. Vanuatu was used as a logistics and supply base during The Second World War by the US military. The locals saw cargo planes being unloaded on airstrips with all kinds of good stuff being delivered. They built plane decoys to try and coax them to land near their villages. There are still some cargo cults in Vanuatu. Cog dis?

My nephew just returned from a 27 month volunteer stint for the Peace Corp in Vanuatu.

[_subgenius]

If indeed you had checked, you would know that Lemmie is an academic.

You are making a common logical fallacy - appeal to authority - whereas you assume that because "academic" must conclude "more correct". Reality insists that there are good academics and incompetent academics - ergo, your assumption is illogical.

This means that, unlike you, she is well trained and experienced in distinguishing fact from fiction and valid information from the kind of nonsense for which you have become so well known.

That does not actually "mean that". It could very well be that Lemmie did quite poorly in those classes and relied upon studies in speculation and courses in arrogant posturing to bolster the gpa and thus receive these mysterious credentials you term as "academic".

There is so much wrong with your statements, and the badly spun science and pseudoscience described in the articles you cited, that it's hard to know where to begin.

another logical fallacy...just because an argument is presented poorly does not invalidate the argument.

As everyone reading this will know (except you, apparently) cardiac arrest is not the same as death.

This is a good point, but it brings into question how you would like to define death in order to rebut the argument (a.k.a. move the goalpost). Surely the definition of death has been rather flexible over the course of medical history...so it stands to reason that the definition of life might well suffer from the same ambiguity. Either way it presents a rather awkward position where you are unable to adequately refute the OP's claim. This point being manifest by how you would prefer t attack the messenger rather then the message.

Cardiac arrest simply means that the heart ceases normal function and that, as a result, insufficient oxygenated blood is being circulated to allow for normal cell function over the long term.

Funny, I thought cardiac arrest simply meant a sudden, sometimes temporary, cessation of the function of the heart. Your amending the definition to include some of the possible consequences of cardiac arrest is interesting, but you also omit the fact that another consequence is indeed death.

Over the short term in cardiac arrest, the brain can continue to function, whether conscious or unconscious, often for some time, especially if body temperature is lowered.

Yes, it surely can...but also the brain can die...there is no definitive "time limit" is there? I mean some brains last longer or shorter than other brains, correct? (and the irony of your use of the terms conscious/unconscious is not lost)

This is why young children involved in cold water drownings can sometimes be resuscitated after being under water for extended periods (up to 30 minutes in rare cases).

Yes, that is one reason why, not the sole reason - again a logical fallacy on your part.
In these cases are brain functions being monitored/determined during the resuscitation? I mean something in addition to pupil dilation?
And how can you exclusively argue this position about the brain when it is possible to be declared brain dead (irreversible unconsciousness with complete loss of brain function) yet the heart still beats, possibly for prolonged amounts of time?

Open heart surgical procedures can involve lowering body temperature and intentionally stopping the heart for up to 45 minutes or so, while cardiopulmonary by-pass equipment provides oxygenated blood to the patient.

irrelevant to the OP

Death occurs when there is no longer electrical activity in the brain, not when the heart stops.

Not true - as noted above. Brain death can occur without a death certificate being able to be executed. You cannot gyrate the definition of death to suit your argument while you criticize the OP for doing the same.

The term "flat line" when referring to what many term "clinical death" means that there is no signal on the electrocardiogram (EKG - from the heart), not the electroencephalogram (EEG - from the brain).

Yet these 'grams' are likely not both available for drowning children you mention above.

Conscious perception, thought, and especially memory, are a result of electrical activity in the brain.

This is an unproven claim. Brain electrical activity may well be synonymous with a runny nose whereas the sniffles are not the cold.

In most jurisdictions, the term 'death' has come to mean brain death, or the total absence of electrical activity in the brain including the brain stem. After brain death, no perception, thought or memory can exist. Brain death is irreversible - period.

Well, since you mention the "legal" definition of death (see also comment above about ambiguous death definitions, moving goal posts, and your criticisms of OP's freelance defining of death) -
Please list the jurisdictions where a death certificate may be issued solely for a brain dead person whose heart is still beating by natural or artificial means.

These are scientific and medical facts, and should be kept in mind when judging the validity of sensationalistic, life after death, click bait woo woo such as found in the articles you cite as "evidence".

Yeah, you mentioned a few scientific facts, but you also noted some fantasy, some speculation, some legalese, and other such nonsense.
So, glass houses - amiright?

[_SPG]

There was a crazy phenomenon, (I don't remember the name) that is manifests in primitive tribes in Africa. Basically, (If you build it, they will come.

Where do you get these fantastical stories??

I get around, and have a wonderfully active imagination.

If I misstated the accepted truth of the Cargo Cults, I sort of apologize. I have my own opinion of what it means. When a member NOM first mentioned them, I contradicted his intended meaning. Whatever their ignorance, they get a desired result.

Building images and temples to ideas and concepts is prominent is most advanced civilizations. A temple to Zeus isn't exactly Zeus, but it is meant to embody his ideals and powers. People went there to pray for his help, his courage, his wisdom, his strength, etc.

The Spartan warriors were considered some of the fiercest in European History. Spirit is invisible and expressing it is often done with physical objects that are not the spirit, but meant to represent it.

[_Themis]

Not real? What is real? Flesh and bone? How long until we can do that?

Yes flesh and bone is real. I think you knew that and are playing dumb again. I think we are getting closer to being able to give people their own real flesh and bone limbs back, but I don't see any supernatural powers doing it in the past, present, or future.

And trust me, people do pray for them.

Are you a little dim. I am the one who said people are praying for them. The point you either are missing or ignoring is that their prayers for supernatural help are not happening.

You assume, that people that pray don't apply their brain, and think that they don't have to. You assume that people who pray will only accept a supernatural solution to their need.

I never said that or assumed that. You are the one who makes a lot of incorrect assumptions. I even asked you question you still ignore about it. Reality is when it comes to healing, areas where where supernatural healing could only come about from a supernatural source never materialize. Sure many people who pray will also get up and do something about it. Pray is the expression of ones desires. It only works if they do something more then express those desires.

But creating images of God, civilizations have developed and grown.

No, they weren't. Civilization developed and grew from changes in the way people gathered and used the resources they found. Farming was the big one in allowing people to remain in one area and build. It's from the development of civilization that we see more elaborate and organized belief systems.

There are large groups of people that defying the doctors, not out of spite, but out of trust in their own abilities to know what is good for them. Many of I talked to have come back from the brink of death. They don't hate doctors, they just know they cannot fully trust them. Faith in self, which is sort of like trust in God, is very important.

I've seen people who ignore doctors when it comes to cancer. They don't do as well as those who do use modern medicine to trya dn fight their cancer.

[_SPG]

Yes flesh and bone is real. I think you knew that and are playing dumb again. I think we are getting closer to being able to give people their own real flesh and bone limbs back, but I don't see any supernatural powers doing it in the past, present, or future.

Look, I'm dumb enough, I don't have to play. I can only imagine when the first person prayed for a restored limb. Now, I can tell you think I'm expecting some supernatural power to simply knit their limb back on, or grow another. But to me, prayer, the power of want, of asking, is what takes us to the next step. In physics, an electronic seems to move in a very mechanical way, without much choice. But, how to people move? If I get out of my chair to refill my caffeinated soda, it's not exactly the power of physics that makes that choice. Sure, there are all sorts of predictable powers at play, but they are not as direct as say magnetism.

The prayer works on the subconscious, might even embed in the DNA. The wanting of replacement limbs has constantly increased as the expectation to obtain them, and the technology has advanced. We are soon at the point, we could actually replace a limb with a living limb. The stuff they are doing with skin repair is mind blowing. You see science as something that happened in spite of religion, but I say it happened as a result of religion. Without the want, nothing is created.

Are you a little dim. I am the one who said people are praying for them. The point you either are missing or ignoring is that their prayers for supernatural help are not happening.

Again, you assume that all people praying expect the limb to simply reappear. I cannot deny that there some people that are that simple. Some people are pretty simple, like the NSA woman that recently stated that being White was an act of terrorism. The power to obtain something starts with want, asking is a first step.

I even asked you question you still ignore about it. Reality is when it comes to healing, areas where where supernatural healing could only come about from a supernatural source never materialize. Sure many people who pray will also get up and do something about it. Pray is the expression of ones desires. It only works if they do something more then express those desires.

I don't mean to ignore your question, but I am pretty dumb. Part of the problem here is that I believe in different realms, or dimensions. In 3D, I don't believe in supernatural. Supernatural is more of a "other worldly" thing. Like, what makes us think that we can go to the moon? Or to another planet? I mean, if you were looking at our ancestors 4 million years ago, would you say, "One day, these guys are going to travel the stars!" Probably not.

What happened between then and now? The impossible happened in the realm of thought and emotions. They did the impossible in their minds and hearts first. How many thousands of years ago did the first ancestor want to go to the moon? But that first desire, left a trail. Even if he/she did nothing but stare up at the moon and want, it changed us. The impossible must be done in realms where it is possible and manifested as it can. There is a power within us that we communicate with when we pray.

No, they weren't. Civilization developed and grew from changes in the way people gathered and used the resources they found. Farming was the big one in allowing people to remain in one area and build. It's from the development of civilization that we see more elaborate and organized belief systems.

You obviously haven't done much research on our ancestors. Most of our God's started out as agricultural powers. Even Isis, a popular goddess even today was the Goddess of Nile. Even if it seems stupid to us today, the desire to please that gods is what held it together.

I've seen people who ignore doctors when it comes to cancer. They don't do as well as those who do use modern medicine to trya dn fight their cancer.

Very few people I've known with cancer have survived it. It's a nasty disease. The one or two that I know that have survived did more than what the doctors said. They didn't ignore the doctors, just didn't totally rely on them.

[_Lemmie]

There was a crazy phenomenon, (I don't remember the name) that is manifests in primitive tribes in Africa. Basically, (If you build it, they will come.

Where do you get these fantastical stories??

I get around, and have a wonderfully active imagination.

If I misstated the accepted truth of the Cargo Cults, I sort of apologize. I have my own opinion of what it means. When a member NOM first mentioned them, I contradicted his intended meaning. Whatever their ignorance, they get a desired result....

So regardless of whether you know a story is true or not, you will use the story as though it were true to support your ideas? Ok. I call that being gullible. The coolness of the story is irrelevant if it is not true.