Michael Ash - Shaken Faith Syndrome

[_jo1952]

So...exactly how would you interpret Joseph Smith's actions in regards to Fanny Alger?

To be more clear, because I believe you are a wolf in sheeps clothing, I will not be drawn into your conversations which promote your desire, which I believe, is to serve Satan. Sorry, but I will just no got there...no good can come of it.

If you are wondering why I would still participate in what may appear to be similar discussions according to your standards, it will be because I think the posters I will participate with are being sincere in the questions - and not doing so solely for the purpose of causing the faith of others to falter. If I should conclude that they are also not being sincere, I will cease my discussions with them as well. It's still a free country, if I am not mistaken.

Let the stoning begin.....

Love,

jo

[_Corpsegrinder]

Sigh...I have not avoided anything.

Ah, but you have. Many times.

[_jo1952]

Ah, but you have. Many times.

Not until now....I am ignoring you.

Love,

jo

[_Corpsegrinder]

Ah, but you have. Many times.

Not until now....I am ignoring you.

Love,

jo

I'm ignoring you ignoring me.

[_jo1952]

I'm ignoring you ignoring me.

xoxoxo

jo

[_SteelHead]

Here Jo I'll help you out.

This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile though it may not have half as much visual effect upon his body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have new creation by the Holy Ghost. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.149)

So Joseph Smith teaches that the principle manifestation of the holy ghost is intelligence. This idea is confirmed in the scriptures.

D&C 6

14 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, blessed art thou for what thou hast done; for thou hast a inquired of me, and behold, as often as thou hast inquired thou hast received instruction of my Spirit. If it had not been so, thou wouldst not have come to the place where thou art at this time.

15 Behold, thou knowest that thou hast inquired of me and I did enlighten thy mind; and now I tell thee these things that thou mayest know that thou hast been enlightened by the Spirit of truth;

D&C 8

1 Oliver Cowdery, verily, verily, I say unto you, that assuredly as the Lord liveth, who is your God and your Redeemer, even so surely shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records, which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scripture of which has been spoken by the manifestation of my Spirit.

2 Yea, behold, I will a tell you in your mind and in your heart,by the Holy Ghost,which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses a brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

Notice how mind and knowledge come before heart. Why do so many members do the HG backwards? Why are they oblivious to the prophet's teachings?

[_Corpsegrinder]

Here Jo I'll help you out.

This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile though it may not have half as much visual effect upon his body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have new creation by the Holy Ghost. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.149)

So Joseph Smith teaches that the principle manifestation of the holy ghost is intelligence. This idea is confirmed in the scriptures.

D&C 6

14 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, blessed art thou for what thou hast done; for thou hast a inquired of me, and behold, as often as thou hast inquired thou hast received instruction of my Spirit. If it had not been so, thou wouldst not have come to the place where thou art at this time.

15 Behold, thou knowest that thou hast inquired of me and I did enlighten thy mind; and now I tell thee these things that thou mayest know that thou hast been enlightened by the Spirit of truth;

D&C 8

1 Oliver Cowdery, verily, verily, I say unto you, that assuredly as the Lord liveth, who is your God and your Redeemer, even so surely shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records, which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scripture of which has been spoken by the manifestation of my Spirit.

2 Yea, behold, I will a tell you in your mind and in your heart,by the Holy Ghost,which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses a brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

Notice how mind and knowledge come before heart. Why do so many members do the HG backwards? Why are they oblivious to the prophet's teachings?

Jo is an interesting case in that she describes herself as an apologist but she seems less than familiar with the basic doctrines of Mormonism.

[_thews]

No church or institution or person or physical evidence reveals truth. For you to continue to expect any of these things to bring you truth will be an exercise in futility.

Actually, physical evidence does reveal truth when truth claims rely on physical evidence to support it. If the belief that something is true opposes the physical evidence that it is not true, then one must attempt to find a way to discount the truth. Your statement above is a textbook exercise in cognitive dissonance, as you discount evidence (or lack of supporting evidence) to discount the truth that what you believe isn't back up by the tangible facts that discount it as false.

[_jo1952]

Actually, physical evidence does reveal truth when truth claims rely on physical evidence to support it. If the belief that something is true opposes the physical evidence that it is not true, then one must attempt to find a way to discount the truth. Your statement above is a textbook exercise in cognitive dissonance, as you discount evidence (or lack of supporting evidence) to discount the truth that what you believe isn't back up by the tangible facts that discount it as false.

Hi Thews,

Sorry, but I can't agree with you on this. Man creates theories about physical evidence; but only the Holy Ghost will confirm truth. The Holy Ghost leads to ALL Truth; man can only make his best guess, which changes as soon as he discovers something which forces him to change his previously held "truth". Man can be led astray by his own vain imaginations, whereas the Holy Ghost cannot lead man astray. He reveals what the Father wants Him to reveal. Since Father is the most intelligent of all of, it seems only reasonable that Father is the only one able to reveal ALL Truth to us through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Where is it written that man should walk in proof (i.e., evidence)? The person who builds his faith upon evidence is building upon a slippery slope. Thus, no solid foundation will prevail upon evidence. For now, we walk in faith, Christ is the cornerstone, and the foundatation upon which we build our faith is the Holy Ghost. What can man teach man about God or His Creation when it is the Holy Ghost who leads to All Truth, and it was NOT man who created our world to begin with?

What you proclaim is truth, is actually observation of what a greater power than man has created. Your observations (truth) change as often as new discoveries are made (and do so reluctantly, I might add). You cannot recreate life unless you begin with life. When you can create life where none existed before, you can get back to me.

Love,

jo

[_jo1952]

Here Jo I'll help you out.

This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile though it may not have half as much visual effect upon his body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have new creation by the Holy Ghost. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.149)

Yes. by the way, this is exactly why it is okay to blaspheme against the Father or Jesus; but NOT against the Holy Ghost. Also the witness and knowledge revealed by the Holy Ghost is stronger than what man can reveal. The Holy Ghost Trump's man.

So Joseph Smith teaches that the principle manifestation of the holy ghost is intelligence. This idea is confirmed in the scriptures.

D&C 6

14 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, blessed art thou for what thou hast done; for thou hast a inquired of me, and behold, as often as thou hast inquired thou hast received instruction of my Spirit. If it had not been so, thou wouldst not have come to the place where thou art at this time.

15 Behold, thou knowest that thou hast inquired of me and I did enlighten thy mind; and now I tell thee these things that thou mayest know that thou hast been enlightened by the Spirit of truth;

This also helps explain why people argue about what the Holy Ghost has taught them. It is what we are ready and prepared for which Father than tells the Holy Ghost to reveal to us. We simply are not all at the same level of preparation for revelation.

[i]D&C 8
1 Oliver Cowdery, verily, verily, I say unto you, that assuredly as the Lord liveth, who is your God and your Redeemer, even so surely shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records, which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scripture of which has been spoken by the manifestation of my Spirit.

2 Yea, behold, I will a tell you in your mind and in your heart,by the Holy Ghost,which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses a brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

Notice how mind and knowledge come before heart. Why do so many members do the HG backwards? Why are they oblivious to the prophet's teachings?[/i]

I think you are reading this incorrectly, and have overlooked this: even so surely shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge


In other words, unless you ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing you will receive a knowledge, then you aren't going to receive the knowledge. Your argument is a straw man; and a pretty weak one at that--even splitting hairs. Therefore, it appears that you are the one who does not understand the Prophet's teachings.

Love,

jo