Mormon Infobia...

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_Runtu
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Runtu »

ldsfaqs wrote:Stop LYING to yourself let alone the rest of us.....

You have NO RESPECT for the Church nor the rest of us Mormons. I see it every day, in almost every post you make. You live in fantasy land about yourself.


You don't know anything about me, and yet you presume to see into my heart and tell me what I think and feel and believe. I'm not sure why you are so full of rage, but it's really not helpful to anyone, least of all to you.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_ldsfaqs
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _ldsfaqs »

Runtu wrote:
ldsfaqs wrote:Stop LYING to yourself let alone the rest of us.....

You have NO RESPECT for the Church nor the rest of us Mormons. I see it every day, in almost every post you make. You live in fantasy land about yourself.


You don't know anything about me, and yet you presume to see into my heart and tell me what I think and feel and believe. I'm not sure why you are so full of rage, but it's really not helpful to anyone, least of all to you.


I judge your words..... period. I don't have to know you to see what you say on this forum, whether is to respectful or degrading of Mormonism and Mormons.
You after all judge me for my judgments of you all, yet I'm not allowed to judge you, which is where my judgment comes from in the first place?

I wouldn't be saying a negative word at all here to anyone if the people here were actually respectful. The place is called the Trailer Park for a good reason. Anti-mormon websites are looked down on for good reason.

We have no interest in looking down on any of you simply because you disagree or don't believe. It's everything else that you all throw in, the unfair degrading, the lying, etc.

Anyway, that's the main reason I liked MA&DB..... Is because I could go there, have respectful discussions and not have to call people liars, bigots, etc., because they were not acting like such. It's really as simple as that.....
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_ludwigm
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _ludwigm »

ldsfaqs wrote:
Runtu wrote:...

You are a classic rebellious teenager,

Fourteenager, as far as I know.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Drifting
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Drifting »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:What you miss is that Moroni's promise is not so much about reading the text, its the encounter with the Holy Spirit that functions both as the agent of conversion and the means of sanctification. Moroni's promise isn't about asking if the book is true -


Here is Moroni's promise.
 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.


Is see what Ben is saying. That the promise of revealing truth refers to the things mentioned in the second half of verse three.
But that is not what Missionaries use the promise for. Missionaries teach it to mean that if you get the appropriate feeling after the reading Book of Mormon then you are to take it to mean that a. The Book is telling the truth, and b. the Chrch is true and you should be baptised.

In fact I would suggest that what the Missionaires teach is the commonly held view throughout the Church. Here is what Primary Children are taught it means.
Conclusion

Testimony


Testify to the truthfulness of Moroni’s promise in Moroni 10:3–5 and that each child in your class can have his or her own testimony that the Book of Mormon is true.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Franktalk
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Franktalk »

Runtu wrote:I don't believe that at all. I believe most people do the best they can with what they know. I came to the painful conclusion that the church isn't true, but I respect those who have come to different conclusions than mine.


And I believe you. I was just placing a few dramatic opinions next to each other for comparisons sake. People could honestly take and hold onto any of them. None of the opinions mean much to me. I am not to judge others. I do get in some conflicts about data or feelings but I do love the spirit children. And of course it is easier to love some more than others. It is hard sometime to see past the surface behavior to the soul beyond. The task is truly difficult but the rewards are worth the effort. Actually the task is its own reward. Once on the path where you can honestly start to love our fellow man you will change into a better person. When you say that you respect others then you too are on that path. I fall short of my goal all of the time and at times regress. The flesh is weak and the world is strong. It is the battle and true repentance that separates the flock. Not so much the results.
_RockSlider
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _RockSlider »

Franktalk,
It will be interesting to see how things turn out for you as a member. Remember my observation about you that you either have had disciplinary action against you, or you have never been a member?
Six years a Christian, and newly a Mormon. Many here were born into 5th and 6th generation Mormon families, and have been all about this for our entire life times.
I don't mean this in a harsh way; the church needs more thinkers and feelers like you, but you are a fish out of water to any TBM ward I've known and I'd guess are going to have a rough road ahead.
_MCB
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _MCB »

He knows the Bible very well, yet rarely references LDS standard works. He just sounds like an outspoken and very devout Christian, not LDS at all. He will end up at the podium, denouncing the unChristian behavior of LDS, and walking out immediately after.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Obviously, on the one topic, we are going to end up continuing to talk past each other, and given that its not that significant to the OP, we should probably let it drop. Our perspectives on texts are far enough apart that we won't make a lot of headway without a substantial amount of groundwork.

Doctor Scratch writes
(If you responded to this, I missed it.)
I think that there are a couple of assumptions here Scratch. First, I will grant to you that the church discourages people from watching R rated movies. I suspect that if I look, I will also find a bunch of statements discouraging me from looking at pornography. I think that we can both agree that in the OP, the statement "The Church is permeated with a seemingly irrational fear of its members finding stuff out." probably was not intended to deal with the question of pornography (even if you think that it might be applicable).

Second, I provided a quote from another general authority which suggested quite reasonably that people ought to go outside of any proscribed list provided by the church of useful sources. That author went so far as to say: "Those who will not risk exposure to experiences that are not obviously related to some Church word or program will, I believe, live less abundant and meaningful lives than the Lord intends." There is something important and significant about learning to expand our horizons and judging between what is good and valuable and what is not.

So if I didn't respond to your link, it was probably because I didn't find it too terribly relevant to the OP.
This is worth re-hashing because it fits with the topic of the OP. And come on, Ben: it "wouldn't help...distribute it beyond the setting in which it was given"? What the? It was delivered to teachers! Even if the talk itself wasn't relayed, the educators--provided that they heeded the directions of this apostle (and how often to TR-carrying Mormons willfully go against what the Brethren say?)--would have passed the gist of it along to the people they taught. Your argument is absurd.
Out of curiosity, have you read it? His caution four seems to come about as close to the charges in the OP as anything else. But, the gist of the talk seems to be aimed at dealing with what the church does teach. So let me ask you the question I have been asking drifting. If the church's primary objective is to teach religion and theology, (which of course is part of what Packer's talk was saying), doesn't that to some extent mean that those classes are not an appropriate place to dig into secular history? It is a serious question. Which brings up the next comment:
I was listening to the "Mormon Stories" interview with Terryl Givens recently, and even he said that people have every right to feel "betrayed" over the fact that the Church has done such a poor job of educating the Saints, and of exposing/"innoculating" them against controversial and problematic history.
This is certainly true - but it brings up the discussion we have been having. Part of the challenge is that this seems like a wildly inappropriate topic for instruction in Sunday School. And thus Jensen's comments on trying to figure out an appropriate way to provide this information to members of the church. I might add that its a problem that has grown as the church has gone about formalizing the lessons, establishing universal schedules and the like, and de-emphasizing the importance of the Sunday School program itself.
No, I think it fits with the thrust of the OP. And what do you mean "elevate"? It was delivered by an apostle. I guess I can grant you that it wasn't sent out on FP letterhead to be read by the bishops of every ward. Is that what you meant? Regardless, I think there is ample, authoritative evidence to support the gist of the OP.
By elevate, I mean this - there are lots of talks given by apostles in non-conference settings. The vast majority of them are ignored, unknown, and undiscussed. This one gets a different treatment - not because it was written by an apostle, but because of the opportunity some saw to use its content. This is what I mean. I will continue to stand by that point. The most that it does for the OP is to talk about what teachers shouldn't discuss. It says nothing about reading material, or exposing ourselves to material in our own study. It isn't a suggestion (as with the R-rated movies) that we shouldn't look at something as members of the church. (If it is, I couldn't find it when I re-read it this morning). He didn't instruct the educators to tell people not to read histories. He did ask them not to teach histories that weren't from faithful works. He may well have been wrong in his assessment of the rewards versus risks of this approach, but it still leaves the fundamental problem of whether we can teach religion and theology and attempt to deal with history at the same time. I am teaching Gospel Doctrine in a couple hours today. Sacrament meeting will run over. I will end up with 30 minutes (or less) to teach a slice of the Book of Mormon. It is a slice I could easily spend far more time on. When I am faced with a class that largely won't even have read the short section of the Book of Mormon I am teaching, what should my priorities be for my Sunday School class?

I think that its easy for us to be critical of the church for not teaching everyone everything, but in the long run, its going to be a more complicated issue. I think that the church is making progress. Opening up the archives, publishing documents (for free) for everyone to get their hands on original sources. Requesting members to write more complete (if faithful) histories. RSR is one of those histories. It is something we might have seen come out of the church a hundred years ago (but not so likely perhaps forty or fifty years ago). The Turley book on the MMM is another.

If we are interested in a fuller disclosure, I think that we should work to praise the church and commend its efforts while at the same time we keep asking for more. Be just as critical of the equally flawed works (if they exist) put together by critics. Suggesting vocally that RSR is a problematic account in its very best scenario won't encourage the church to respond in such a way in the future. My personal experience is that the Church responds far better to criticism voiced from the perspective of the faithful than the same criticism leveled by those that are not believers. (Just my two cents at the end here).

Ben M
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _MCB »

My personal experience is that the Church responds far better to criticism voiced from the perspective of the faithful than the same criticism leveled by those that are not believers. (Just my two cents at the end here).
Agreed. But those with the personal courage to criticize from within are also those who are willing to listen to the criticism of non-believers.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Drifting writes:
In fact I would suggest that what the Missionaires teach is the commonly held view throughout the Church. Here is what Primary Children are taught it means.
I remember being a missionary. Looking backwards, I was absolutely clueless. Almost everything I knew about the gospel was superficial. The most interesting discussions I had prior to going on my mission was the chat my Dad had with me on the 8 hour drive to the temple to get my endowments - and I had not context for it. My note books and journal entries I have kept over the years show constant change in my views (I find it hard sometimes to read my earl contributions on ZLMB - they make me cringe). I think that people join the church in spite of their missionaries (not always because of them), and that we underestimate at times the role that the Holy Ghost plays in conversion. Sometimes people join the church and are later converted (my father would be an example of that). Sometimes as lifelong members we go through a conversion process multiple times.

There is a counterpoint to this entire thread. Testimonies are rarely based on historical data (although testimonies can clearly be lost because of it). We have over-emphasized history (as a church) as part of that ideal testimony. And part of the struggles of some is due to this. I think that another of the issues the church is struggling with is how to teach faith in an increasingly secular environment. Faith is easier to teach (I think) when the communities are already predominantly believers, and where basic notions about God are assumed rather than explained.

Ben M.
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