The Bottom Line

[_malkie]

Am I (and others) completely mistaken in thinking that you have told us quite clearly that this is not what you were doing. Nor, I believe, is it what Paul of New Testament fame was doing. If anything, assuming that you and others really did speak to God (and there is still no credible evidence for that), is shows that your God is rather capricious. There seems to be zero relationship between the honest seeking and the finding.

Any response to the first paragraph?

There is no response to the first paragraph. It supposes that honest seekers aren't answered by God. I don't believe that is true to begin with. You either are seeking God, have found God, or aren't looking. If you aren't looking, God may choose to visit you like he did Paul or myself. Then you aren't seeking God either. You know there is a God.

A God who promises to answer those who seek him and does not consistently do so is not worth the effort - in my opinion. However, I'm happy for you that you have found a God that suits you, even if you don't have a way of knowing who or what that God is - or at least none that you can credibly articulate, as far as I'm concerned.

Your response to that in the past has been that the seeker is not doing it right, or has not done it long enough, or some other reason that makes it the fault of the seeker. Standard stuff. Does not satisfy me, but if it satisfies you then that's OK for you.

Back to work again!!

[_Tobin]

A God who promises to answer those who seek him and does not consistently do so is not worth the effort - in my opinion. However, I'm happy for you that you have found a God that suits you, even if you don't have a way of knowing who or what that God is - or at least none that you can credibly articulate, as far as I'm concerned.

Your response to that in the past has been that the seeker is not doing it right, or has not done it long enough, or some other reason that makes it the fault of the seeker. Standard stuff. Does not satisfy me, but if it satisfies you then that's OK for you.

Back to work again!!

I know you don't like the answer malkie. Otherwise, you'd still be seeking. Unforunately malkie it isn't a matter of what you want. You simply can't snap your fingers (or put God on a timer) and expect God to answer you right away or on any schedule. If that is your view of honest seeking of God, then there is a large difference between our views. And unforunately attitude is very important here as well. If you aren't willing to do anything (and take a long as is necessary to do so) in seeking the Lord, then that is part of the problem. When we overcome that greedy, demanding, needy, selfish view - and are humble, patient, kind, giving, loving, understanding and willing to do all that the Lord asks - then we get our answers.

[_Themis]

You aren't saying anything. You are spewing. When you want to make a point, please do so.

People have given you lots of points to consider including me. You just don't have good answers. It's not like we don't know that because we have actually tried to find answers.

[_Themis]

There is no response to the first paragraph. It supposes that honest seekers aren't answered by God. I don't believe that is true to begin with. You either are seeking God, have found God, or aren't looking. If you aren't looking, God may choose to visit you like he did Paul or myself. Then you aren't seeking God either. You know there is a God.

How would you know honest seekers are not getting answers. I guess you never were an honest seeker when you actually were a member of the church. It's still the same blame the seeker.

[_Themis]

A God who promises to answer those who seek him and does not consistently do so is not worth the effort - in my opinion.

I think this really get to the issue of the OP. To bad the believers in a LDS or Christian God can't provide anything. One of the things as a believer, who has had some spiritual experiences, is noticing that indeed others have different interpretations of their experiences. This brings up questions about how I really know that I am communicating with the HG, and even if I am, am I getting the right message with such a subjective experience.

I find it funny now that we can get so attached to a subjective experience and our interpretations of that experience that even the amount of evidence we have to day cannot help one to correct their beliefs. I would suggest this has to do with our emotions surrounding the experience. I think until one can really separate their emotions from the experience they cannot really evaluate the possibility of being wrong.

[_Gunnar]

The fact that Tobin and subgenius, who both stoutly maintain that their convictions were received through the power of the HG, do not entirely agree on what God wants us to believe about the truthfulness of the current LDS church is yet an another powerful confirmation of the conclusion stated in my OP. It amazes me that neither one of them seems able to see or admit that obvious fact!

If Albion or LittleNipper chimed in on this thread, both of which are convinced that God has unequivocally repudiated the Book of Mormon to them, the validity of that conclusion would be more strongly reinforced. I suspect that both of them have refrained because they been able to figure that out for themselves already. The fact still remains that none of the above have been able to give a coherent or persuasive reason why their spiritual insights should be regarded as more reliable than that of any of the others.

They have accused us of not being able to receive the same insight as they because of what we were predisposed to believe, and then they blame us for not continuing to pray and ask God (however long it takes) until we receive the same answer they claim to have received. In other words, they are urging us to be predisposed to accept only the answer that the Book of Mormon is indeed what it claims to be, no matter how long it takes us to get that answer. Is it not blazingly obvious that the longer it takes to finally get that answer by that means, the more likely it is to be merely a product of our own imagination or self-delusion?

[_Drifting]

The fact that Tobin and subgenius, who both stoutly maintain that their convictions were received through the power of the HG, do not entirely agree on what God wants us to believe about the truthfulness of the current LDS church is yet an another powerful confirmation of the conclusion stated in my OP. It amazes me that neither one of them seems able to see or admit that obvious fact!

If Albion or LittleNipper chimed in on this thread, both of which are convinced that God has unequivocally repudiated the Book of Mormon to them, the validity of that conclusion would be more strongly reinforced. I suspect that both of them have refrained because they been able to figure that out for themselves already. The fact still remains that none of the above have been able to give a coherent or persuasive reason why their spiritual insights should be regarded as more reliable than that of any of the others.

They have accused us of not being able to receive the same insight as they because of what we were predisposed to believe, and then they blame us for not continuing to pray and ask God (however long it takes) until we receive the same answer they claim to have received. In other words, they are urging us to be predisposed to accept only the answer that the Book of Mormon is indeed what it claims to be, no matter how long it takes us to get that answer. Is it not blazingly obvious that the longer it takes to finally get that answer by that means, the more likely it is to be merely a product of our own imagination or self-delusion?

Yes, it would be a far more powerful witness were it able to convince

[_Gunnar]

A God who promises to answer those who seek him and does not consistently do so is not worth the effort - in my opinion.

Yes! Exactly!

However, I'm happy for you that you have found a God that suits you. . .

I share that sentiment too. If subgenius and Tobin's current religious beliefs give them peace of mind and inspire them to be good, honorable and caring people who are honest and charitable in their dealings with others--how can anyone justly complain about that, as long as they recognize the possibility that their spiritual insights are not necessarily more valid or more likely to be of God than those of others who disagree with them?

Your response to that in the past has been that the seeker is not doing it right, or has not done it long enough, or some other reason that makes it the fault of the seeker. Standard stuff. Does not satisfy me, but if it satisfies you then that's OK for you.

Full agreement yet again!

[_Gunnar]

A God who promises to answer those who seek him and does not consistently do so is not worth the effort - in my opinion.

I think this really get to the issue of the OP. To bad the believers in a LDS or Christian God can't provide anything. One of the things as a believer, who has had some spiritual experiences, is noticing that indeed others have different interpretations of their experiences. This brings up questions about how I really know that I am communicating with the HG, and even if I am, am I getting the right message with such a subjective experience.

I find it funny now that we can get so attached to a subjective experience and our interpretations of that experience that even the amount of evidence we have to day cannot help one to correct their beliefs. I would suggest this has to do with our emotions surrounding the experience. I think until one can really separate their emotions from the experience they cannot really evaluate the possibility of being wrong.

Yup!

[_malkie]

The fact that Tobin and subgenius, who both stoutly maintain that their convictions were received through the power of the HG, do not entirely agree on what God wants us to believe about the truthfulness of the current LDS church is yet an another powerful confirmation of the conclusion stated in my OP. It amazes me that neither one of them seems able to see or admit that obvious fact!

If Albion or LittleNipper chimed in on this thread, both of which are convinced that God has unequivocally repudiated the Book of Mormon to them, the validity of that conclusion would be more strongly reinforced. I suspect that both of them have refrained because they been able to figure that out for themselves already. The fact still remains that none of the above have been able to give a coherent or persuasive reason why their spiritual insights should be regarded as more reliable than that of any of the others.

They have accused us of not being able to receive the same insight as they because of what we were predisposed to believe, and then they blame us for not continuing to pray and ask God (however long it takes) until we receive the same answer they claim to have received. In other words, they are urging us to be predisposed to accept only the answer that the Book of Mormon is indeed what it claims to be, no matter how long it takes us to get that answer. Is it not blazingly obvious that the longer it takes to finally get that answer by that means, the more likely it is to be merely a product of our own imagination or self-delusion?

I thought that I was done with the thread, but I simply cannot ignore the thought that your first paragraph triggered:

What "experiment" would Tobin and subgenius propose to us? (oh heck, let's add your second paragraph so we can throw in Albion and LittleNipper too)

That we seek God until:
1. We experience what Tobin tells us he experienced (by the way, did we ever get an answer on the wide, dark brown feet and the black, wavy hair?)
2. We experience what subby thinks we should experience
3. We experience what Albion thinks we should experience
4. We experience what LittleNipper thinks we should experience
5. Any one of the above
6. All of 1-4, in sequence
7. Any combination of 1-4
8. Something else

If the 4 of them can agree on an answer, then it might be worth trying. But before I would be willing to expend any effort on it I would ask subby, Albion, and LittleNipper to actually carry out the experiment until they all get the same answer, and return and report.

Tobin would, of course, exempt himself from the experiment, since he has already found God, and as a result is convinced that he need do no further looking - after all, he got the correct answer - for him it is and always will be #1. Never mind that he has no idea who was hiding behind the "God" label.