The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

[_gdemetz]

No, you are wrong. That was a personal revelation to them by the Holy Ghost which witnessed the truth to them in this manner, but maybe you don't understand that since obviously you haven't had that experience.

[_Franktalk]

No, you are wrong. That was a personal revelation to them by the Holy Ghost which witnessed the truth to them in this manner, but maybe you don't understand that since obviously you haven't had that experience.

To argue over the Holy Ghost is a waste of time. People either are spiritual or not. But I will tell you that those who are finding their way will make many wrong turns and will interpret the Spirit in many ways. So keep seeking but don't get to sure of yourself. And most of all ignore those who do not have a spiritual bone in their body.

Many will try and distract you. The world will hate you. But you still have some attachment to scholars. This is not a good thing. Cast off the ideas of men. Men will lead you to error. And be careful with scripture. There are some passages where the men are in error yet the passage does not clearly say so. You must read all of scripture as one truth. Things that don't fit don't fit for a reason.

For example:

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

What you must figure out for yourself is that your knowledge will get better over time. And at each step all of scripture will change as you understand more and more. Things you thought you knew well will stand on their head but the whole will start to come into focus. The guide of the Spirit is a path. Don't assume you have it right. If you do then you will stop seeking. That is of man. Much of scripture has at least two surface understandings. The milk level and the meat level. For instance can you tell me why Joseph Smith changed 1260 days into 1260 years? Unless you know that you will not know how to interpret the 1260 years. Step back and assume you know nothing. Scripture comes from the mind of God which is very complex. You will never know it all. We all seek but we all are weak and limited.

John 21:18
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Here Christ is talking to Peter. He tells him that when (future) he is old he will walk a path that another will choose for him. But the Peter standing before Christ is doing his own will. Therefore all of what Peter does should be checked to see if it is Peter's will or God's. So scripture tells us this here but where Peter is doing things like killing Christ sheep the passage is left for us to figure out. So without the whole of scripture we are lost.

[_Franktalk]

Franktalk -

Just a FYI. The Book of Revelation was written in code and symbolism on purpose. It is meant to be read as such and those that speak in certainty and concrete terms as far as future events including times and dates of when certain events will occur should not be trusted. That is not what God intended; otherwise, he would have spoken in unambiguous language as he did to the Brother of Jared (and his words were sealed).

I take the Bible quite literally except where it indicates that I should not. You are free to read it any way you choose.

[_ludwigm]

you are wrong (by the way gdemetz is right but we are wrong - always)

People either are spiritual or not.

People either think or not.

People either believe fairy tales or not.

Eternal truths.

[_Tobin]

No, you are wrong. That was a personal revelation to them by the Holy Ghost which witnessed the truth to them in this manner, but maybe you don't understand that since obviously you haven't had that experience.

They didn't receive the Holy Ghost till the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:4-5, 2). They felt that way because God (Christ) was with them. So, your claim it was the Holy Ghost again just confirms your appalling lack of knowledge and why your feelings are not from God, but somewhere else.

[_Tobin]

I take the Bible quite literally except where it indicates that I should not. You are free to read it any way you choose.

Let me get this straight, you take the Book of Revelation (and the Bible) literally? If that is accurate, wow, am I ever going to have some fun with you. If you really feel that way, I have a couple of hundred questions about it that is going to make you look completely ridiculous. I'll start dropping questions in here now I know that.

Let's start with some easy ones for now. There are two accounts for the creation of the world in Genesis (Genesis 1 and Genesis 2). Which one is accurate and pertains to how the world was actually created? Next, do you really believe the world was created in 6 days as the Bible literally claims? Do you believe that Adam and Eve were the first human beings on Earth even though evolution clearly indicates otherwise?

[Guest]

Hello friends!

As we begin to awaken we begin to see how 'small' our minds are - what a tiny little perspective they have - defining everything and anything according to each's itsy bitsy experience in time and space - which is actually filled with shadow and distortion.

And so to think that we can accurately interpret scripture with this teeny tiny clouded mind is a bit foolish.

If I might also remind that Jesus never told us to interpret scripture, but attacked those who made such their life career - saying that you can read and study scripture all you want, but that does not mean that you will be able to see what scripture is talking about in this world, even if it is standing right in front of you.

As example, the Pharisees spent their life studying and interpreting scripture, but they could not see the Messiah standing right in front of them.

We have the same thing occurring right now, right underneath the noses of those who are busy interpreting scripture, yet they cannot see it. The world's main religions cannot even see it. The Second Coming.

Consider the First Coming. The Pharisees interpreted scripture and with their teeny tiny mind, they analyzed and concluded what the Messiah would look like, when he would come. His actual appearing in this world looked nothing like they anticipated, so they did not recognize it. And if we think long and hard, we might also realize that the first coming of the Messiah was not widely accepted until long after it occurred, when many could look back and say, yes that is what happened! Typically, we cannot interpret prophecy accurately as it is happening, but only in retrospect, for unless we are in intimate relationship with God, we are not going to see as something unfolds. History reveals this verity. Israel had all the prophecies about the Messiah in their hands, but could not see them occur in time and space.

I do though believe and have seen that study and contemplation of scripture draws us closer to God and His Kingdom, because of our longing and reaching with our minds and hearts, through Holy Scripture, to touch God. When we interpret scripture though, we are not reaching and longing for God, drawing nearer, we are instead trying to pull God out of the infinite and place him in a finite box, make him our little pet via our teeny tiny interpretation of Holy Scripture. (Hey I am not pointing fingers, for I have done the same thing! I am pointing out how foolish we are for doing so. How blind we are to think that we can understand what mystics write about their visionary experiences without any such experience ourselves.)

And so we can busy ourselves interpreting scripture, convincing ourselves that we can see though we cannot, or we can busy ourselves reaching and longing to draw nearer to God. I believe those committed to the latter will be able to see the Second Coming is already occurring.

Shalom!

Sheryl

[_Themis]

To argue over the Holy Ghost is a waste of time. People either are spiritual or not.

LOL Sure is. If they don't agree with me then it wasn't the HG speaking to them. Fun to watch the fireworks here about it. Classic example of just how unreliable it really is, and whether it really is from some unseen being or just yourself.

[_Tobin]

As we begin to awaken we begin to see how 'small' our minds are - what a tiny little perspective they have - defining everything and anything according to each's itsy bitsy experience in time and space - which is actually filled with shadow and distortion.
And so to think that we can accurately interpret scripture with this teeny tiny clouded mind is a bit foolish.

That's a very poor assumption. If God didn't think we could understand him, why speak to man at all? In fact, how did we even get scripture in the first place if man is incapable of understanding God with our tiny minds?

If I might also remind that Jesus never told us to interpret scripture, but attacked those who made such their life career - saying that you can read and study scripture all you want, but that does not mean that you will be able to see what scripture is talking about in this world, even if it is standing right in front of you.
As example, the Pharisees spent their life studying and interpreting scripture, but they could not see the Messiah standing right in front of them.

You misunderstand why the Pharisees missed it. They let their own biases and preconceptions get in the way. This was not true of everyone though. Many welcomed the arrival of the Messiah, even when he was very young. Don't forget the 3 wise men and there were many others that recognized him as well.

We have the same thing occurring right now, right underneath the noses of those who are busy interpreting scripture, yet they cannot see it. The world's main religions cannot even see it. The Second Coming.

Many have announced the Second Coming throughout the centuries, but if you understand the scriptures you realize that it doesn't matter when the Lord is coming (or it shouldn't matter). What matters is how you conduct your life and what your relationship is with the Lord. After all, you might get hit by a bus tomorrow and meet the Lord then. That is the key to Second Coming of the Lord and the kind of mindset you should have in preparing for his arrival.

[_sheryl]

That's a very poor assumption. If God didn't think we could understand him, why speak to man at all? In fact, how did we even get scripture in the first place if man is incapable of understanding God with our tiny minds?

Hi Tobin!

Thank you for your response.

I can understand why you would take offense, but if you will take note, God did not speak to 'man' in scripture, but to prophets, to mystics, whom had intimate spiritual encounters with God and could thus have some level of understanding of their experience, of the Word of God with which they communed, and were able to communicate that to 'man', or to the people. Thus God did not speak to man, but to messengers, mystics, prophets, apostles, who then spoke 'for God'.

And still today, God does not speak to 'man', but to prophets, apostles and messengers, or to those whose inner sensing is awakening, those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

You misunderstand why the Pharisees missed it. They let their own biases and preconceptions get in the way.

Yes, indeed. They let their own biases and preconceptions get in the way. They had no direct experience of God and refused to listen to those who did, and so elevated an understanding that was only opinion above an understanding that came directly from God. Their 'interpretation' without direct knowing or experience was only opinion, and they held to that instead of an interpretation that came from one who could see.

This was not true of everyone though.

Yes, some were not blind. Some could also see and also had intimacy with God. Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Blessed are you, Peter, for you did not use the biases and preconceptions of blind men to see, but your own inner sight, your own communing with the Father.

Many welcomed the arrival of the Messiah, even when he was very young. Don't forget the 3 wise men and there were many others that recognized him as well.

Yes! The three wise men were mystics. The word that is translated as wise is magus or astrologer.

Many have announced the Second Coming throughout the centuries, but if you understand the scriptures you realize that it doesn't matter when the Lord is coming (or it shouldn't matter). What matters is how you conduct your life and what your relationship is with the Lord. After all, you might get hit by a bus tomorrow and meet the Lord then. That is the key to Second Coming of the Lord and the kind of mindset you should have in preparing for his arrival.

Yes, I like this. No matter what we think of the Second Coming, this is how we ought to live.

Shalom!

Sheryl