Fulfilled Prophecy?

[_Albion]

gdemetz, it is interesting that you would cite the Jews to support you in this case but reject their history and practice on other issues such as there only being one high priest at a time. Jews also believe they are still waiting for the Messiah so perhaps they are wrong on this, too. As I have said, you are not arguing with me on this point but with scripture and Jesus' own words. I do understand the principle of an Elias, but Jesus clearly referenced the Malachi prophesy as relating to John using the name Elijah. Elijah came again at the Mount of Transfiguration...in my reckoning that make two times he has come. As I said, you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Jesus. Another case of bending scripture to fit Smith's claims, I am afraid.

[_jo1952]

gdemetz, it is interesting that you would cite the Jews to support you in this case but reject their history and practice on other issues such as there only being one high priest at a time. Jews also believe they are still waiting for the Messiah so perhaps they are wrong on this, too. As I have said, you are not arguing with me on this point but with scripture and Jesus' own words. I do understand the principle of an Elias, but Jesus clearly referenced the Malachi prophesy as relating to John using the name Elijah. Elijah came again at the Mount of Transfiguration...in my reckoning that make two times he has come. As I said, you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Jesus. Another case of bending scripture to fit Smith's claims, I am afraid.

Albion,

Jesus ALSO taught:

Matthew 17:11 (KJV) (emphasis mine)

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

We are also taught:

Matthew 3:1-3 (KJV)

3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

And

Luke 1:17 (KJV) (speaking of the yet unborn John the Baptist)

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

So we learn that John the Baptist, who is actually the body which houses the spirit of Elijah during Christ's lifetime, is the Elijah who PREPARES THE WAY FOR THE LORD. Which, by the way, fulfills Isaiah's prophecy.

We also learn that it will be Elijah's spirit (or at least an individual with the "title" of Elijah) of whom Jesus said: Elias truly shall first come, AND RESTORE ALL THINGS. Which prophecy was NOT fulfilled while Jesus walked the earth.

When Peter, James and John saw the Transfiguration of Christ in which they saw Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus, did Elijah RESTORE ANYTHING?? I say no....he did NOT. What I see the purpose of Moses and Elijah as being seen at the Transfiguration, was for them to serve as witnesses. Their presence was NOT fulfilling any Prophecy. As a matter of fact, Moses and Elijah did not actually touch the earth; i.e, neither Moses nor Elijah returned to the earth. Rather they appeared in the spiritual realm which is where they were....Not on the earth. As neither returned to the earth....walking around as men. Their appearance was part of the vision Peter, James and John were allowed to witness.

The reason Jesus needed to be "transfigured" was so that He could participate and communicate fully with the spiritual realm. Whereas Peter, James and John were not transfigured; so they were only able to witness this as a vision - they did not participate in the vision. What wonderful lessons they were being taught!!! Remember how, when Moses spoke with God and received the Ten Commandments, that his body glowed and the people could not withstand looking upon him? That is because Moses had to be transfigured in order to withstand the presence of God. Peter, James, and John were NOT transfigured; but rather received a limited view (i.e. vision) of what took place. If Moses and Elijah had revealed themselves in bodies of flesh, then no transfiguration of Jesus would have been required in order for Jesus to communicate with them.

Additionally, if, as you claim, this was Elijah's fulfillment of Prophecy, then Elijah would have RESTORED ALL THINGS. Additionally, HOW could this have been a restoration of all things BEFORE Jesus' return, since Jesus had not left yet? What do YOU think Eljah restored at the Transfiguration??? He HAD to have restored something...ALL THINGS...if this was really a fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy.

I am anxiously awaiting your answers.

Mine is not some type of twisting of what the Bible is teaching. I am taking the time to specifically quote scriptures and give what I believe are reasonable interpretations of them; and they are NOT being compared with anything the LDS Church has taught me. Rather, they are being read with the power of the Holy Ghost to guide and direct my eyes so that I can see.

Blessings,

jo

[_gdemetz]

Thanks Jo, good answer again, as usual!

Drifting, do you have a reference to the Luke 10 JST you cited? The reference I saw shows that Joseph made some changes in the 9th chapter, and then nothing again until the 12th chapter.

[_Drifting]

Thanks Jo, good answer again, as usual!

Drifting, do you have a reference to the Luke 10 JST you cited? The reference I saw shows that Joseph made some changes in the 9th chapter, and then nothing again until the 12th chapter.

Yes.

Go to your LDS scriptures and look at the footnotes...

[_grindael]

I also found the premise of the OP “Was this a fulfilled prophecy” greatly disturbing.

Whether or not the patriarchal blessing was given before the MMM makes little difference, for the blessing is so vague that it could be applied to almost anything. There was a culture of violence in Mormonism that started with Jo Smith and was continued by Brigham Young. D. Michael Quinn wrote an excellent paper on this found in a 2011 issue of Sunstone Magazine: https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/the-cu ... sm-part-i/

In an article written for Dialogue in 1993 called “Patriarchal Blessings and the Routinization of Charisma”. Irene M. Bates wrote about the Dame blessing, and since she did extensive research on this subject, I would be inclined to believe the blessing was given in 1854:

“Many of the promises of early patriarchs may seem extravagant today, but they were in tune with the climate of nineteenth-century evangelicalism. They were also reminiscent of ancient Israel. The vengeful God of the Old Testament co-existed with a loving God who was mindful of the suffering of his people. When the Saints were experiencing a great deal of violent persecution, the belief that the Lord would punish the aggressors, or give the victims the opportunity to retaliate, was a recurring theme in patriarchal blessings. After the assassination of Joseph and Hyrum Smith this became more focused as "avenging the blood of the Prophets."45

Of particular significance is a blessing given by Patriarch Elisha H. Groves on 20 February 1854. In this blessing William H. Dame was told, "Thou shalt be called to act at the head of a portion of thy brethren and of the Lamanites [native Americans] in the redemption of Zion and the avenging of the blood of the Prophets . . . The Angel of Vengeance shall be with thee." Dame, who was described as "a mild-mannered, kindly man," was later involved in discussions which led to the Mountain Meadows Massacre in southern Utah in 1857.46 The blessings of William Smith and of Uncle John Smith had frequently referred to vengeance, as did those of local patriarchs, but as the Saints became more settled in Utah such phrases began to disappear.” (Dialogue, Vol.26, No.3, p.12 - p.13)

Footnotes

45. Blessing of young John Smith by his great-uncle John, 20 June 1852, Smith family records. Also some of the blessings given by William Smith included these words

46. Juanita Brooks, John D. Lee: Zealot--Pioneer Builder-- Scapegoat (Glendale, CA: Arthur Clark Co., 1973), 209. See also Brooks, Mountain Meadows Massacre (Palo Alto, CA: Stanford University Press, 1950). Earlier, in December 1838, Lee had been told by Patriarch Isaac Morley, "Thou shalt come forth in the morning of the first resurrection, and no power shall hinder, except the shedding of innocent blood, or consenting thereto" (courtesy Wilma Bozung).

Will Bagley wrote a paper on “Brigham Young’s Culture of Violence and the Murders at Mountain Meadows”, found here: http://www.cesnur.org/2002/slc/bagley.htm

He writes, (excerpts)

“In 1845, the Mormon apostles issued a proclamation to “to the Rulers and People of all Nations,” declaring, “the kingdom of God has come: … even that kingdom which shall fill the whole earth, and shall stand for ever.” As drafted by apostle Parley P. Pratt, the proclamation was an ultimatum to world leaders to join the Mormon millennial plan “to reduce all nations and creeds to one political and religious standard, and thus put an end to Babel forms and names, and to strife and war.” The Earth’s rulers must “take a lively interest with the Saints of the Most High, and the covenant people of the Lord” or “you will become their inveterate enemy.”

This unambiguous statement of objectives by a revolutionary new religious movement inspired Mormonism’s fifty-year conflict with the American Republic. With this charter, Brigham Young sought to complete the work of Joseph Smith at any cost and by any means necessary. During his first decade in the West he built a religious theocracy that employed the techniques of a modern totalitarian state to establish the Kingdom of God in the Great Basin. In the process, he created what historian D. Michael Quinn has called a culture of violence. The decision to do whatever was necessary to build the Kingdom “encouraged Mormons to consider it their religious right to kill antagonistic outsiders, common criminals, LDS apostates, and even faithful Mormons who committed sins ‘worthy of death.’”

Following Joseph Smith’s murder, Brigham Young incorporated this oath into the Mormon temple ceremony: “You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray, and never cease to pray, Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and your children's children unto the third and fourth generations.”

During a two-year famine that ravaged Utah in the mid-1850s, Mormon leaders subjected the people of Utah to an orgy of religious fanaticism known as the “Reformation.” John M. Higbee, who gave the orders to kill the Arkansans at Mountain Meadows, recalled in 1896 that Cedar City was in the grip of “a craze of fanaticism, stronger than we would be willing now to admit.” Perhaps the most troubling aspect of the Reformation was the Mormon leadership’s obsession with blood and their public calls for murder. Their rhetoric dripped with sanguine imagery, and their Old Testament theology incorporated this dark fascination in a perplexing doctrine known as “Blood Atonement.” Joseph Smith taught that certain grievous sins put a sinner “beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ.” Their “only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone.” Strictly interpreted, the doctrine may have applied only to believing Mormons, but the words of its prophets suggest the LDS church shed the blood of apostates “as an atonement for their sins.”[5] As the doctrine evolved under Brigham Young, it would have a powerful-and confusing-influence. Of all the beliefs that laid the foundation of Utah’s culture of violence, none would have more devastating consequences.”

This culture of violence led Patriarchs to include in their blessings such phrases as “avenge the blood of the prophets”. Irene Bates broke down some of the recurring phrases that she was able to research in her Dialogue article:

The following tables give some idea of the changes that have occurred in the themes covered in patriarchal blessings. The figures are based on: (1) blessings that I have seen (either holographs, photocopies, or reproduced in journals); (2) thirty- seven blessings and excerpts of blessings from published sources; and (3) twenty-eight responses to questionnaires specifying themes that appeared repeatedly in nineteenth-century blessings. (The questionnaires were directed to those receiving blessings during the past fifty years). Of the later blessings of which I have copies, although many recipients wished to remain anonymous, permission was granted to use them in this analysis. Even though the sample cannot be considered as representative of the many thousands of blessings given, some tentative conclusions can be drawn.

1833-99 1900-79
Themes (N=560) (N=184)
1. Remain until Second Coming 57 4
2. See "last days" 51 2
3. Command elements 39 1
4. Perform miracles 30 0
5. Have gift of healing 60 9
6. Be one of "horns of Joseph" 29 1
7. Prophesy 18 2
8. Have visions 25 2
9. Not taste of death 6 0
10. Raise the dead 8 0
11. Avenge blood of prophets 12 0

Breaking down these figures in terms of gender, some interesting patterns emerge, but the limited nature of the sample can only suggest possibilities for comparison:
1833-99
Men Women
Themes (N=297) (N=263)
1. Remain until Second Coming 33 21
2. See "last days" 29 17
3. Command elements 39 0
4. Perform miracles 24 3
5. Have gift of healing 27 28
6. Be one of "horns of Joseph" 29 0
7. Prophesy 12 6
8. Have visions 14 11
9. Not taste of death 3 3
10. Raise the dead 8 0
11. Avenge blood of prophets 11 0
1900-82

Men Women
Themes (N=91) (N=93)
1. Remain until Second Coming 1 3
2. See "last days" 1 1
3. Command elements 1 0
4. Perform miracles 0 0
5. Have gift of healing 8 2
6. Be one of "horns of Joseph" 1 0
7. Prophesy 1 1
8. Have visions 0 2
9. Not taste of death 0 0
10. Raise the dead 0 0
11. Avenge blood of prophets 0 0

Reference: Dialogue, Vol.26, No.3, p.21

What I found even more disturbing were the further comments of the OP’s author:

As to the point of whether these blessings imply any Divine approval (which you raised here), the words "called to act at the head of a portion of thy Brethren and of the Lamanites in the redemption of Zion and the avenging of the blood of the prophets upon them that dwell on the earth," and "avenging the blood of Brother Joseph" do seem to suggest that.

This indicates a thought process of justification, and that is reprehensible. The follow up questions are even more so:

1.) Were any children under the age of accountability killed?

2.) As the giver of life, isn't it God's prerogative to take it when and how He chooses?

3.) Isn't it possible that the adults were a part of the mob that killed Joseph and Hyram?

4.) Didn't God say something somewhere (in D&C, I believe) about holding them accountable for their blood unto the third or fourth generation unless they repented?

As others have elucidated here, yes there were children that were murdered. Who would ever assume that God was behind this? There is no evidence that any from the Fancher-Baker party were in the mob that murdered the Smiths, and holding children accountable for their parents supposed “sins” is barbaric and has no place in a religion supposedly patterned after the teachings of Jesus. I find it odd for anyone to spend so much time thinking about trying to find an angle to justify the murders authorized by Brigham Young in 1857. Young was a tyrant, a liar and a murderer.

Mormon Patriarchal blessings have always been dictated by what is popular in Mormon culture at the time. When there was great speculation about people living on the Moon, you had blessings predicting that some would go there and preach the gospel. In the 1850's, Young and his co-horts were escalating their violent rhetoric, with Young even telling his apostles once that he thought that then President James Buchanan might soon be dead, and his first counselor Daniel H. Wells replied that "this was Buchanan's own measure some time ago". (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 5, p. 72, August 2, 1857) Young's culture of violence became a self fulfilled prophecy at Mountain Meadows a month later.

I find in the Dame blessing from 1854 malice of forethought, but not for a specific target, but the planned fulfillment of two Mormon doctrines, that the Native Americans of North and South America (declared the remnant of Jacob in an Official 1845 Proclamation to the World by the Twelve Apostles - thus doctrine) would rise up and build the New Jerusalem (with Mormons using them to fight the "Gentiles" - hence Dame's blessing that he would have a "portion" of "Lamanites" at his disposal to carry this out.) and the pernicious doctrine incorporated into the Temple Ritual that Mormons were obligated to avenge the murders of the Smith brothers. Parley P. Pratt even made a specific prophecy in 1838 that there would be no unbelieving "Gentiles" left in America in 50 years from that date, and said that it would probably happen sooner (in 5 to 10 years) or the Book of Mormon would be proved false. Ironically, Pratt made this "prophecy" in response to LaRoy Sunderland's charge that Mormon "prophets" were always vague in their predictions, so Pratt in his arrogance to prove he was a prophet, gave him one. I find the fact that this failed miserably hilarious. Mitt Romney has taken up the mantle of his ancestor as a liar very adequately. (See Pratt's 1838 tract, "Mormonism Unveiled", page 15)

"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin." Deuteronomy 24:16

[_grindael]

The NIV reads,

9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”

11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

The spirit of Elijah came in John the Baptist. The "restoration" was God's law of love that superseded the law of Moses. This is made crystal clear by Jesus, and the account in Luke. Mormon spin doesn't work. There is no "sealing power" needed. This is a Jo Smith fable. http://angiken.blogspot.com/2006/11/spi ... lijah.html

Smith, on the other hand, had so many problems with the Greek transliteration of Elijah that he made a fool out of himself. http://packham.n4m.org/linguist.htm#ELIJAH

[_just me]

grindael, great contribution to the thread! Thank you.

[_Tobin]

...

The Mormons didn't have to do a thing. The gentiles (Americans) slaughtered each other by the thousands during the Civil War. The Mormons were for the most part untouched and that is all the divine providence one should need.

[Guest]

...

The Mormons didn't have to do a thing. The gentiles (Americans) slaughtered each other by the thousands during the Civil War. The Mormons were for the most part untouched and that is all the divine providence one should need.

Yes, quite interesting that the Mormons sat out the Civil War hoping against hope that America would destroy itself, and then Young could become President as Heber C. Kimball blathered on about a few days before Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre. (http://jod.mrm.org/5/213#219) Kimball even boasted that it was "foreordained" that he would be Vice-President. Obviously delusional, this was the same bunch of "prophets" that predicted that the South would win the war, and that slavery would never be abolished because it was a "divine institution." History has shown the results of Mormon prophecy. They get driven from one state to another, because decent people couldn't stand their wicked practices and megalomaniacal aspirations for the country, and then frame it all as prophecy. "Prophet" Young during the middle of the Civil War would declare,

"Treat the slaves kindly and let them live, for Ham must be the servant of servants until the curse is removed. Can you destroy the decrees of the Almighty? You cannot. Yet our Christian brethren think that they are going to overthrow the sentence of the Almighty upon the seed of Ham. They cannot do that, though they may kill them by thousands and tens of thousands. According to accounts, in all probability not less than one million men, from twenty to forty years of age, have gone to the silent grave in this useless war, in a little over two years, and all to gratify the caprice of a few—I do not think I have a suitable name for them, shall we call them abolitionists, slaveholders, religious bigots, or political aspirants? Call them what you will, they are wasting away each other, and it seems as though they will not be satisfied until they have brought universal destruction and desolation upon the whole country. It appears as though they would destroy every person; perhaps they will, but I think they will not."(http://jod.mrm.org/10/248#250)

This was in 1863, and Young ever on the side of wrong, gets it wrong again and calls the Civil War "useless". In 1859 he told Horace Greely the same thing because Greely mentioned that there were slaves in Utah.

Wilford Woodruff called himself a "prophetic historian" and predicted (wrongly, as usual) at the beginning of the conflict between the States:

"The foundation has been laid during the year 1860 To break up & annihilate the American Government and the scenes which will follow in quick succession will be terrible & horrible in their detail. This Nation is guilty of sheding the Blood of the Lords anointed, of his Prophets & Saints and the Lord Almighty has decreed their destruction. The Lord has Commenced a Controversy with the American Government and Nation in 1860 and he will never cease untill they are destroyed from under heaven, and the Kingdom of God Esstablished upon their ruins. Let the Gentiles upon this land prepare to meet their God." (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 5, p. 529, December 31, 1860)

Young was so confident that the South would win, he made this totally laughable prediction,

"In speaking of the war in the United States Presidet Young Said the North would find much treachery among there armies. Anderson is playing in a deep game, and his fight at Sumpter is all a sham. He will try to get influence in the North untill He Can get the Command of an armey to deliver to the South and many play this game." (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 5, p. 568, April 21, 1861)

And then Young (of course) had to give the vengeance of the Mormon God all the credit,

"The South are better prepaired & much faster than the North are. Lincoln has taken a Course to rather keep the North back. But the Curse of God will be upon the Nation and they will have Enough of it. The Rulers possess no Power in the Land. They have persecuted the Saints of God and the Rulers would do nothing for us but all they Could against us and they will now get their pay for it." (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 5, p. 570, April 27, 1861)

At the end of 1861 "prophetic historian" Woodruff crows about his "prediction" that it would be a bloody year for America (and who couldn't have made that prediction with a Civil War eminent?)

"This is the last day of 1861 which has past and gone and borne its report to heaven of the deeds of all Nations and men. This year has brought to pass much of the fulfillment of the predictions of the Ancient and Modern Prophets of God. See this Journal Jan 1st 1861. I there declaired as a Prophetic Historian that this year would be the most distressing year America Ever saw since they were an independant Nation. Time has proven it so." (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 5, p. 615, December 31, 1861)

Woodruff then gives a big dose of the rhetoric they were pounding the "saints" with, even in the wake of Mountain Meadows:

"The American Nation as a United States Government is doomed To destruction and No power Can save it. They have forfeited all right and title to Redemption or Salvation at the Hand of the Lord or his Saints. It is decreed that the measure which they have meeted out unto the Saints shall be meeted unto them and they are hastening unto there work of desolation, war, Bloodshed, & destruction and wo, wo, is ther doom. The spirit of Prophecy would Cry O, Lord, Hasten thy work. Let the wicked slay the wicked untill the whole land is Clensed from the Corruption, sin, abomination, and wickedness which now reigns upon the face of the whole Earth. May thy Judgments Continue to be poured out upon this land of North America untill [p.617] the Blood of Prophets & Saints is avenged before the Lord and thy words fulfilled upon the Land of Joseph. Take away the sceptre rule and Government from the wicked & Corrupt and give it into the Hands of the Just even thy Saints, that they may rule in righteousness before thee. Give thy oppressed people O Lord the privilege of appointing there own Governor, Judges, and Rulers, from this time forth that thy Kingdom may be Esstablished upon the Earth, and the poor rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 5, p. 616, December 31, 1861)

But none of this came to pass, and today we are the America that the Mormon "prophets" never foresaw. In 1862, Woodruff again claims that "the Lord will Continue to weaken this Nation untill they are broaken to peaces and Cast down to rise no more forever. The Lord has Commenced a Controvery with the Gentiles upon this Continent and He will never scease untill they are broaken up & destroyed. The Historian will have much material for History during this year." (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 6, p.3, January 1, 1862)

But not what "the Historian" thinks. Woodruff then reveals the Mormons plans, to set up their own "government" to take the place of the American government:

"All the people were ripe for the organization of a State Governmet. The Heavens, the Earth the Holy Spirit & the people were all ready for this work. Our Fathers who made the declaration of independance and formed the American Constitution was inspired to lay the foundation of a Free and independant Government and the Lord protected them in it. But they did not know that they were inspired to do it. There was a veil over them that they did not know what the purposes of the Lord were or that he was protecting them. It is not so with us. We know that God is leading us and is inspiring his people to Esstablish his Kingdom & Governmet upon the Earth & we know it." (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 6, p.6, January 5, 1862)

A few days later, Young gives a speech and calls all of America "traitors" and that the former President should have been hung,

"We have got a Government and what are they going to do about it? If the Constitution has been Carried out it would have hung President Buchannan and all who were associated with him in making war upon us." (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 6, p.11, January 22, 1862)

Woodruff again mentions to a group of "saints" the purpose of Mormonism on February 12:

"I need not tell you that this is the kingdom of God, Esstablished by God Himself which is to take the place of all other kingdoms upon Earth and we are the People Ordained of God to Esstablish his kingdom upon the Earth, build up Zion and prepare the way for the Coming of Jesus Christ." (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 6, p.22)

Woodruff then tells the “saints” and the 12 apostles,

“At all times when you assemble in the capacity of a Council to transact business let the eldest preside and let one or more be appointed to keep a record of your proceedings. And on the decision of Every important decision item let it be what it may let such decision be noted own and they will ever afterwords remain upon record as LAW, Covenant, & doctrin.” (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 6, p.23, February 12, 1862)

Woodruff then goes on to say how important his “sacred history” was, and that it was like “testaments” of the original apostles of Jesus:

“I have written more sacred History of the teaching of the prophets & Apostles & official acts of the Latter day Saints than would make several Testiments as large as the one Handed down to us by the Ancient Apostles. I have kept a Journal of almost Evry day of my life since I have been a member of [p.24] this Church. By refering to my Journals I Could tell Each day what I have done, the Company I have been in, and what was transpiring around me, and any Council and Teaching From the Presidency or Twelve Except whare I know there were reporters recording the same.” (ibid, page 23-24)

But the testaments of the apostles of Jesus weren’t filled with hatred, vanity and false prophecy. (Ok, maybe a little vanity by James & John)

Brigham Young was so delusional that he got up in a legislative assembly of his shadow Deseret government and said,

“The Constitution does not give the Congress of the United States power to govern the people in a Territory any more than in a State Capacity. They have the power to admit States but not to form there government or send officers to rule over them.” (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 6, p.41, April 14, 1862)

In August on 1862 Young mentions the return to Jackson County, in front of the Salt Lake Temple:

“If we do not Hurry with this I am afraid we shall not get it up untill we have to go back to Jackson County which I Expet will be in 7 years. I do not want to quite finish this Temple for there will not be any Temple finished untill the One is finished in Jackson County Missouri pointed out by Joseph Smith. Keep this a secret to yourselves lest some may be discouraged. Some things we should keep to ourselves.” (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 6, p.71)

Wilford said much in his journals about Smith’s south Carolina “prophecy”, but added some things that Smith told him at the end of 1863:

“Thus Ends the year 1863. Joseph the Prophet said whoever lived to see 1860 would live to See the Commencement of the downfall of the United States. The Union was dissolved in 1860 & Civel war Commenced which has raged Ever since & the Land is beginning to be bathed in Blood & will Continue untill the words of the Prophet will be fulfilled. It is an important age of the world, and the Events of Each year are rapidly fullfilling the words of all Prophets since the world Began.” (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 6, p.143, December 31, 1863)

Smith’s South Carolina “prophecy” was a good guess, but wrong. War was not “poured out upon all nations” and the United States had no “downfall”. With the ravages of the Civil War, came Sherman’s march and the destruction of many innocents in Missouri, which was pure delight to Woodruff, and a “great miracle” that shows this pseudo-apostle’s lust for blood and revenge:

“The Lord is watching over the interest of Zion and sustaining his kingdom upon the Earth and Preparing the way for the return of his Saints to Jackson County Mo to build up the waste places of Zion. Jackson County have been Entirely Cleared of its inhabitants during the year 1863 Which is one of the greatest miracles manifest in our day. And those who have driven the Saints out of Missouri & spoiled them are in there turn now driven out and spoiled and there is much distress throughout all the land whare the saints have been persecuted. And the judgments of God will Continue upon the whole Nation untill the Blood of the prophets is avenged.” (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 6, p.148, January 1, 1864)

At the end of the war, in 1865 Woodruff quotes Brigham Young’s personal “prophet” Heber C. Kimball stating:

“Brother Kimball said that President Lincoln would be in the presidential Chair untill He had destroyed the Nation. The North will never have power to Crush the South No never. The Lord will give the South power to fight the North untill they will destroy Each other.” (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 6, p.216, March 6, 1865)

As we see, nothing these “prophets” said came to pass. Lincoln was assassinated a few months later. The North preserved the Union, and “the Lord” didn’t give the South power to fight the North until America was destroyed, which these men were greatly anticipating, so they could set up their own Kingdom with Young as President.

The Civil War wasn’t the punishment of the fictional Mormon God on a sinful nation, it was the result of a group of men standing firm for the rights of the oppressed, something far beyond the contemplation of despots like Brigham Young and his chosen “apostles”. The Lamanites did not rise up, and the “saints” did not go back to Jackson County as Young predicted, even though they delighted in the destruction and the suffering of the people there.

It wasn’t “the Kingdom of God or nothing”, it was more like compromise to survive, and the American Government proved to be too powerful for the “Kingdom”, (in the face of all their “prophecies” and blather) and they were forced to jettison their false timeline of world domination by the end of the 19th century, the polygamy, (as another “prophet” Joseph F. Smith committed perjury before the same Government he thought would be destroyed) and finally - holding on as long as they could (and with the threat of a Justice Department investigation) - their white supremacy doctrine.

For more on Smith's perjury: http://mormonitemusings.wordpress.com/2 ... -prophets/

[_Drifting]

Bravo grindael, bravo. Great post.