The Bottom Line

[_Tobin]

Again malkie, you are hiding behind the argument that we are essentially unable to tell good from evil. I'll repeat that is non-sense.

The next part I know you won't like, but Mormonism is untenable without a personal witness of God. As I've often stated, there are just too many preposterous claims such as people seeing God, Angels, and having Gold Plates land in their laps to be able to maintain it is anything but a hoax and a fraud without that witness. I certainly wouldn't be Mormon without that witness and be doing something else.

So, my answer is, if you are REALLY intersted and are convinced this is the true path - seek God till you find him - no matter how long it takes.

If that isn't something you are prepared to do, then live a good honest life and wait for God to come to you.

And in answer to your question about brown feet and so on, I don't consider it a question I worry about. I believe everyone brings their own perspective to the table when they perceive God. So of course varying people with different backgrounds will perceive God in different ways based on a number of factors. The important part is HAVING the experience.

[_Themis]

Again malkie, you are hiding behind the argument that we are essentially unable to tell good from evil. I'll repeat that is non-sense.

Good and bad are just what groups and individuals define it as. No two religions agree on everything.

[_PrickKicker]

The human race of course, has social boundaries, we all have an idea of what is acceptable and unacceptable, apart from a small amount who are mentally incapable of understanding.
and if the majority of us don't like what some one else is doing we'll do something about it, like try to educate the offender, if that fails or we deem it serious enough we can remove them from society or in some cases eliminate them.

When wild animals display acts of aggression and dominance it is accepted as nature, we train some animals to behave the way we want them to, by domination or rewarding them for good behavior and some animals that turn savage we will terminate them as the more dominant species.

As with all animals all that really matters to us is food and sex, our species cannot continue other wise... The rest of life is just a pursuit of these 2 things.
In the words of the Blood Hound Gang, You and me baby ain't nothing but Mammals.

Man made Religions however, are set up by people who can't compete in the survival of the fittest and work for their food, have to use words and influence to get their food and sex, and so make ludacris claims that they talk to God and he has told them, they are in charge, he says you should give me all your money and let me sleep with your wife and children and he'll punish anyone who says different.

Mormons claim the natural man is an enemy God and has been since the days of Adam, I thought we were the good guys? in the war in heaven,
and which IMPO contradicts the belief that we are his children, and proves along with other stories in the Bible the killing of his own children and so on and so on, that God is a useless parent.

But we can't say that because God is perfect so we have to make someone else the originator of our bad behavior and so we invent the Devil, rather than take personal responsibility for our own actions.

[_malkie]

The fact that Tobin and subgenius, who both stoutly maintain that their convictions were received through the power of the HG, do not entirely agree on what God wants us to believe about the truthfulness of the current LDS church is yet an another powerful confirmation of the conclusion stated in my OP. It amazes me that neither one of them seems able to see or admit that obvious fact!

If Albion or LittleNipper chimed in on this thread, both of which are convinced that God has unequivocally repudiated the Book of Mormon to them, the validity of that conclusion would be more strongly reinforced. I suspect that both of them have refrained because they been able to figure that out for themselves already. The fact still remains that none of the above have been able to give a coherent or persuasive reason why their spiritual insights should be regarded as more reliable than that of any of the others.

They have accused us of not being able to receive the same insight as they because of what we were predisposed to believe, and then they blame us for not continuing to pray and ask God (however long it takes) until we receive the same answer they claim to have received. In other words, they are urging us to be predisposed to accept only the answer that the Book of Mormon is indeed what it claims to be, no matter how long it takes us to get that answer. Is it not blazingly obvious that the longer it takes to finally get that answer by that means, the more likely it is to be merely a product of our own imagination or self-delusion?

I thought that I was done with the thread, but I simply cannot ignore the thought that your first paragraph triggered:

What "experiment" would Tobin and subgenius propose to us? (oh heck, let's add your second paragraph so we can throw in Albion and LittleNipper too)

That we seek God until:
1. We experience what Tobin tells us he experienced (by the way, did we ever get an answer on the wide, dark brown feet and the black, wavy hair?)
2. We experience what subby thinks we should experience
3. We experience what Albion thinks we should experience
4. We experience what LittleNipper thinks we should experience
5. Any one of the above
6. All of 1-4, in sequence
7. Any combination of 1-4
8. Something else

If the 4 of them can agree on an answer, then it might be worth trying. But before I would be willing to expend any effort on it I would ask subby, Albion, and LittleNipper to actually carry out the experiment until they all get the same answer, and return and report.

Tobin would, of course, exempt himself from the experiment, since he has already found God, and as a result is convinced that he need do no further looking - after all, he got the correct answer - for him it is and always will be #1. Never mind that he has no idea who was hiding behind the "God" label.

Back in town again, and checking in.

So, we have Tobin's answer (if I understand his last post) - "seek God till you find him - no matter how long it takes", but questioning how to recognise "God" comes down to the ability to tell good from evil, and the suggestion that we cannot unequivocally tell what is good is nonsense - even though prophets (and non-prophets) do not agree on the matter.

What about subgenius, Albion, LittleNipper?

[_Drifting]

So, we have Tobin's answer (if I understand his last post) - "seek God till you find him - no matter how long it takes", but questioning how to recognise "God" comes down to the ability to tell good from evil, and the suggestion that we cannot unequivocally tell what is good is nonsense - even though prophets (and non-prophets) do not agree on the matter.

What about subgenius, Albion, LittleNipper?

They're still praying for an answer...

[_Tobin]

So, we have Tobin's answer (if I understand his last post) - "seek God till you find him - no matter how long it takes", but questioning how to recognise "God" comes down to the ability to tell good from evil, and the suggestion that we cannot unequivocally tell what is good is nonsense - even though prophets (and non-prophets) do not agree on the matter.

You sort of get it, but my argument is a bit more sophisticated than that. You need to understand that the experience is paramount. Who cares if it is God or the Devil and that is an entirely separate question. The experience establishes that these things are real. Understand now?

Now, as far as recognizing whether that experience is from God or the Devil - well, that is a matter of recognizing good and evil. We are fully capable of determining the difference between the two. It is essential to our ability to choose between good and evil to have that ability to do so. Otherwise, we are simply unable to choose and there is no free will. And that is why I'm saying the position that we cannot determine the difference is absolutely absurd.

[_Themis]

You sort of get it, but my argument is a bit more sophisticated than that. You need to understand that the experience is paramount. Who cares if it is God or the Devil and that is an entirely separate question. The experience establishes that these things are real. Understand now?

Not necessarily.

Now, as far as recognizing whether that experience is from God or the Devil - well, that is a matter of recognizing good and evil. We are fully capable of determining the difference between the two. It is essential to our ability to choose between good and evil to have that ability to do so. Otherwise, we are simply unable to choose and there is no free will. And that is why I'm saying the position that we cannot determine the difference is absolutely absurd.

Good and bad are define by humans, and while we have some basic agreement by most humans, we still have lots of disagreement as to what is good or bad.

[Guest]

God decides what is good and what is evil. And only God is good. One either agrees with God or imagines he knows what is good --- and satan agrees with what man imagines is good...

[_just me]

God decides what is good and what is evil. And only God is good.

And sometimes killing is evil and sometimes killing is righteous. Sometimes rape is evil and sometimes rape is righteous. Sometimes genocide is evil and sometimes genocide is righteous. Sometimes burning people alive is good and sometimes it is evil. Sometimes human sacrifice is good and sometimes it is evil. Sometimes drowning babies is good and sometimes drowning babies is evil. Sometimes lying is good and sometimes lying is evil.

Good god, my rear.

[_LittleNipper]

God decides what is good and what is evil. And only God is good.

And sometimes killing is evil and sometimes killing is righteous. Sometimes rape is evil and sometimes rape is righteous. Sometimes genocide is evil and sometimes genocide is righteous. Sometimes burning people alive is good and sometimes it is evil. Sometimes human sacrifice is good and sometimes it is evil. Sometimes drowning babies is good and sometimes drowning babies is evil. Sometimes lying is good and sometimes lying is evil.

Good god, my rear.

The means always justify the ends. PS> How many babies were drowned in the Flood according to the Bible?