Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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_sock puppet
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _sock puppet »

moksha wrote:No one ever faulted inspirational speaker Napoleon Hill for his made up stories. Whether fictional or not they added to the point he was making and the audience enjoyed them. Why worry about these bits and flecks of unreality, when the purpose they served was real enough. Stories help advance the point the teller is trying to make and hopefully serve to enlighten and entertain us.

If TSM is nothing more than an inspirational speaker, then he's on terra firma.

But as to the claim he's a prophet of god, a lie is the antithesis of truth, even if told to give listener's warm fuzzies.
_Madison54
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Madison54 »

I don't post on here often, but I do read on here often.

This thread has been interesting to read. I have felt for a very long time that speakers at GC, Church Education Weeks, etc., either fabricate or embellish stories greatly. I would come home from BYU Education Week year after year wondering, "Why do some people have so many earth shattering, inspiring events happen in their (almost) daily lives and I have nothing like that happen to me???" Then I got to know someone who knew one of the speakers extremely well (her sister was married to him) and she told me that practically none of the stories he'd told were the truth (or at least the complete, honest, unembellished truth)....but that he justified it by how inspiring a speaker he was.

I just have to wonder how many on here who are defending Pres. Monson's (and other's) right to "lie" or at least embellish or stretch the truth would also defend one of their teenage children (or someone else close to them) doing the same? How about a spouse fudging the truth or forgetting the facts regarding who or where they were the night before? How about a teenager doing the same about who they were with, what they were doing, what party they'd attended, what went on there, etc., etc.?

Why defend the Prophet of God who quite honestly should most likely even be held to a higher standard?

What example is that to your children who you are trying to teach to be honest at all times and who you are also trying to teach to look to their Prophet as an example in all things?

Just saying.....

My 2 cents for what they are worth....
_Yoda

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Yoda »

I agree with the statement about lies being harmful when you are referring to a private situation. I just think that too much is being made of Dunn's aggrandizement of things from the pulpit. As far as President Monson is concerned, I'm still not convinced that he lied...at least, intentionally.

Of course, part of my view regarding tales from the pulpit comes from the fact that I believe the LDS Church to have the same man-made elements as many other churches. I don't view it as the "one, true Church". I DO view the LDS Church as a positive organization which preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ. However, I think that, over the years, it has fallen victim to man-made mistakes, just like other churches in the world have. This is part of my NOM philosophy that I get beat up for all the time by both sides of the aisle. But, guess what? It's the only way I was able to deal with my personal crisis of faith. There are elements of the gospel, such as polygamy, and various pieces of Church history that I have never been able to reconcile, or be at complete peace with. Allowing myself to segment what works for me is how I am able to maintain my membership in the Church, and keep peace with my family. If people don't like it, they can lump it.
_Chap
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Chap »

liz3564 wrote:I agree with the statement about lies being harmful when you are referring to a private situation.


These words suggest you think lies might not be harmful in a non-private, i.e. public situation. I am sure you don't actually mean that. That is not meant ironically.

liz3564 wrote:As far as President Monson is concerned, I'm still not convinced that he lied...at least, intentionally.


I think that he showed that he was rather reckless about truth, which is I agree not the same as flat out conscious lying.

liz3564 wrote: Allowing myself to segment what works for me is how I am able to maintain my membership in the Church, and keep peace with my family. If people don't like it, they can lump it.


Quite right too. We all have to find a way to live, starting from where we and those we love actually are rather than from some kind of idealized position. Human life is (in my view) so short that it does no great harm if we simply do the best we can with the tiny space in which we are able to exercise choice.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_sock puppet
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _sock puppet »

liz3564 wrote:I agree with the statement about lies being harmful when you are referring to a private situation. I just think that too much is being made of Dunn's aggrandizement of things from the pulpit. As far as President Monson is concerned, I'm still not convinced that he lied...at least, intentionally.

Of course, part of my view regarding tales from the pulpit comes from the fact that I believe the LDS Church to have the same man-made elements as many other churches. I don't view it as the "one, true Church". I DO view the LDS Church as a positive organization which preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ. However, I think that, over the years, it has fallen victim to man-made mistakes, just like other churches in the world have. This is part of my NOM philosophy that I get beat up for all the time by both sides of the aisle. But, guess what? It's the only way I was able to deal with my personal crisis of faith. There are elements of the gospel, such as polygamy, and various pieces of Church history that I have never been able to reconcile, or be at complete peace with. Allowing myself to segment what works for me is how I am able to maintain my membership in the Church, and keep peace with my family. If people don't like it, they can lump it.

Well, here's the thing liz, despite our exhange of posts on that other thread, I am betting that when you give a talk at church, you do not embellish the facts of a story you might relate, or fabricate them. I'd also suspect that if you do include a story in your talk, you fact check those aspects you might not be certain of before the talk is finalized and given.

Blixa has related a corroborating instance that involved her father and TSM, showing TSM's propensity to create a story around a few facts he learns.

It just seems odd, liz, that you'd defend a practice, a corroborated practice, by the man, TSM, that you yourself would not do.
_Steve Benson
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Steve Benson »

liz:
As far as President Monson is concerned, I'm still not convinced that he lied...at least, intentionally.


How can you lie unintentionally?
_sock puppet
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _sock puppet »

interested wrote:liz:
As far as President Monson is concerned, I'm still not convinced that he lied...at least, intentionally.


How can you lie unintentionally?

A misrepresentation may be intentional or unintentional. All that is required is that the facts are wrong as represented.

A "lie" is usually regarded as intentional, but there is growing use of 'lie' as a synonym of or shorthand for misrepresentation. I suppose liz was using the word in this regard.
_harmony
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _harmony »

It's entirely possible to be wrong, without being a liar.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Steve Benson
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Steve Benson »

A "lie" is usually regarded as intentional, but there is growing use of 'lie' as a synonym of or shorthand for misrepresentation. I suppose liz was using the word in this regard.


I know of no "growing use" of the word "lie" to mean simply some kind of unintentional misrepresentation.

Quite to the contrary, "Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language," defines "lie" as both (1) a verb and (2) a noun, in a very straightforward and limited context:

1. "to make a statement that one knows is false"

2. "a false statement made with intent to deceive"

To lie is to, ipso facto, intend to deceive when making a false statement.

One, therefore, in common parlance, cannot unintentionally lie. A lie is a purposeful act of deception.

Quit cutting Monson undeserved breaks here.

Plain and simple, he lied by making claims that were patently false, that were not based on demonstrable factual foundations and that he had no reaonable basis for believing were literally true. If Monson believed they were true, then why did he not provide supporting, verifiable information to back them up? Because he did not have that information and therefore deliberately and knowingly invented (i.e., fabricated) false story elements in that narrative vacuum in order to dramatically juice up his tale.

That can be reasonably deduced from the fact that Monson's false statements in his original 1969 sermon--that Patton had died on 8 May 1942 aboard the U.S.S. Lexington in the Coral Sea--were redacted from his 2007 rewrite of events. Obviously, he (or his speechwriters) came upon information that Patton had not died in the 1942 Battle of Coral Sea, given that Patton was alive during 1942 and 1943. Perhaps Monson was made aware of that fact from the letter he cites from Mrs. Patton who tells him shortly after his errant 1969 sermon that her son Arthur had died on 5 July 1944. So, theoretically, Monson curiously waits for almost 40 years but then when he delivers the 2007 sermon he updates his tale by removing (without telling his audience) the false information about Arthur dying on the wrong ship in the wrong body of water in the wrong year in the wrong battle.

But then Monson goes on to insert claims in that same 2007 story about Arthur Patton supposedly dying ("quickly," no less) in combat with the enemy--being "lost at sea," Monson asserts, off Saipan in 1944. Such claims are seriously undermined, if not directly contradicted, by available U.S. naval crew tranfer logs from the U.S.S. White Plains itself, as well as by U.S. Navy WW II casuality compliations covering the duration of the war. Patton has never been officially declared by U.S. military documentation as having been killed in combat action during WW II or as having been lost at sea during WW II.

What is actually revealed by accessible U.S. military documents is that Patton was declared "missing" on 2 July 1944 due to his "own misconduct" while his ship was temporarily heading to port at an atoll outside the combat zone, after combat operations for that vesel had been recently completed. If Monson had access to that military data and did not mention it, Monson lied by making up elements of his story that did not comport with the known facts. If Monson did not have access to that information, he also lied by making up elements for his story that did not factually interface with that military data. (Or in the best of scenarios for Monson, he simply repeated unverified stories that were told to him by unnamed others).

The evidence strongly points to Monson inventing key parts of his Patton narrative.

Finally, Monson is not somehow exonerated if he purposely deceived with the rationalization secretly in his head that it is an acceptable practice to "lie for the Lord" in order to achieve the higher purpose of giving listeners the emotional tinglies.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
_Yoda

Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Yoda »

Monson is not somehow exonerated if he purposely deceived with the rationalization secretly in his head that it is an acceptable practice to "lie for the Lord" in order to achieve the higher purpose of giving listeners the emotional tinglies


I don't believe that is what he did. I think that he got his facts mixed up, and honestly thought he was telling the truth. That is a completely different situation than lying.
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