Mormon Infobia...

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_Drifting
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:
Drifting wrote:The Church teaches about the historic events culminating in Joseph's death, leaving out specific but materially important elements of the tale.

The question is not wether or not the Church avoids teaching an accurate history - that much is conclusively proven. The question is why it doesn't? The Church has an article of faith exhorting people to be honest and true. Dallin Oaks has articulated honesty to include deliberately leaving bits of information out. I don't think it is wrong to expect the Church to lead by example.


This is just junk at its best. Please name me one organization that teaches the entire truth about its past?

Science in its history is ripe with hoax and deliberate distortion. Yet I never heard a single instance of this while I was in science class. Theories are presented as facts and indoctrination happens. The peer review process is full of agendas where truth takes a back seat. Why is it that you are trying to place on this one organization what man has not achieved anywhere else?


Because this organisation claims to be Gods one true Church on the Earth today with the only correct form of Priesthood and doctrine, and more correct scripture. Not just another man made organization.

One wouldn't expect Gods true Church to be ripe with hoax and deliberate distortion, yet here we are...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Doctor Scratch writes:
Per what definition, Ben? Maybe you can cite a passage from Festinger or something. The thing that immediately strikes me as being problematic with your assertion here is the notion that "beliefs" change. How is something like this measurable? And isn't "shelving" a difficult issue a form of change, arguably?
This is from Festinger's introduction:
Since there will be a more formal discussion of this point later on in this chapter, let us now examine how dissonance may be reduced using as an illustration the example of the habitual smoker who has learned that smoking is bad for his health. He may have acquired this information from a newspaper or magazine, from friends, or even from some physician. This knowledge is certainly dissonant with cognition that he continues to smoke. If the hypothesis is correct, what would the person involved be expected to do?

I. He might simply change his cognition about his behavior by changing his actions; that is, he might stop smoking. If he no longer smokes, then his cognition of what he does will be consonant with the knowledge that smoking is bad for his health.
2. He might change his "knowledge" about the effects of smoking. This sounds like a peculiar way to put it, but it expresses well what must happen. He might simply end up believing that smoking does not have any deleterious effects, or he might acquire so much "knowledge" pointing to the good effects it has that the harmful aspects become negligible. If he can manage to change his knowledge in either of these ways, he will have reduced, or even eliminated, the dissonance between what he does and what he knows.

But in the above illustration it seems clear that the person may encounter difficulties in trying to change either his behavior or his knowledge. And this, of course, is precisely the reason that dissonance, once created, may persist. There is no guarantee that the person will be able to reduce or remove the dissonance. The hypothetical smoker may find that the process of giving up smoking is too painful for him to endure. He might try to find facts and opinions of others to support the view that smoking is not harmful, but these attempts might fail. He might then remain in the situation where he continues to smoke and continues to know that smoking is harmful. If this turns out to be the case, however, his efforts to reduce the dissonance will not cease.

Indeed, there are some areas of cognition where the existence of major dissonance is customary. This may occur when two or more established beliefs or values, all relevant to the area of cognition in question, are inconsistent. That is, no opinion can be held, and no behavior engaged in, that will not be dissonant with at least one of these established beliefs.(pp. 5-7)
and
Indeed, one of the important consequences of the theory of dissonance is that it will help us understand some circumstances where the cognitive elements do not correspond with reality. But it does mean that if the cognitive elements do not correspond with a certain reality which impinges, certain pressures must exist. We should therefore be able to observe some manifestations of these pressures. This hypothesized relation between the cognitive elements and reality is important in enabling measurement of dissonance, and we will refer to it again in considering data. (p. 11)

Festinger provides a much more technical discussion of this from pages 18-28. There are several things that Festinger notes with regards to you last comment. The first is that even with competing cognitions, we don't always see dissonance. After all we probably experience dissonance on some level all the time (but it may be unnoticeable). Festinger deals with this in part by discussing the notion of magnitude (pp. 15-17 of his introduction). When we talk about shelving something easily (and my emphasis is on how easy it is), it is evidence that the magnitude of the dissonance was not significant. If they were significant (or as you put it, if it was a "difficult" issue), then as Festinger notes in the quote above: "If this turns out to be the case, however, his efforts to reduce the dissonance will not cease."

Now, it is true that there might be a change. A person could well increase the magnitude that they assign to an existing cognition to cause the balance between the competing cognitions to shift. But, if that balance starts off heavily in favor of one particular side, then such a shift is even unnecessary in the face of competing cognitions. If you are playing with a red ball, and someone asks you if you like your green ball, unless you have some reason to believe that you are wrong in knowing that the ball is red, you aren't going to adopt the idea that the ball is green. The situation might be modified somewhat if you knew that you (or the other person) was color blind. But in general terms, the cognition of what you see is given a magnitude of weight far above the cognition of what the other person has expressed that they see.

So while an LDS person might encounter new cognitions, if they don't change, and if there is no behavioral shift, then its likely that they haven't experienced the feeling of discomfort identified as cognitive dissonance. And it certainly wouldn't produce something that we could look at and call cognitive dissonance.

Ben M.
_Drifting
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Drifting »

While studying at Brigham Young University, she “spiritually imploded” after learning doctrine outside the church. A “disturbed” [Carrie] Sheffield met with a “high-ranking Mormon leader” who told her to stop reading historical and scientific materials because they were worse than porn.


Mormon Infobia in action.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
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_Themis
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Themis »

Franktalk wrote:This is just junk at its best. Please name me one organization that teaches the entire truth about its past?


I am not sure how other organizations not being 100% truthful about it's past makes what the church does somehow ok. The church is probably worse then most, but then they have a lot more to hide, especially when you are trying to be God's one true church.

Science in its history is ripe with hoax and deliberate distortion. Yet I never heard a single instance of this while I was in science class. Theories are presented as facts and indoctrination happens. The peer review process is full of agendas where truth takes a back seat. Why is it that you are trying to place on this one organization what man has not achieved anywhere else?


While it's not perfect, it does do a good job, and bad theories tend to be discarded over time. Your religious agenda is well noted, so most here understand why you want to dismiss any theory that does not agree with your religious views.
42
_Drifting
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Drifting »

Frank,

Our Father in Heaven Tells Us to Be Honest in All We Do
To be honest means to tell the truth. To be honest means to not lie or steal. When we say things that are not true, we are lying. When we tell only part of the truth, we are lying. When we lead people to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.(Gospel Fundamentals)


There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.(Gospel Principles)
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Buffalo
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Buffalo »

Frank, why shouldn't the church be held to a higher standard than, say, Scientology? Or the Russian Federation?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:Doctor Scratch writes:
Per what definition, Ben? Maybe you can cite a passage from Festinger or something. The thing that immediately strikes me as being problematic with your assertion here is the notion that "beliefs" change. How is something like this measurable? And isn't "shelving" a difficult issue a form of change, arguably?
This is from Festinger's introduction:
Since there will be a more formal discussion of this point later on in this chapter, let us now examine how dissonance may be reduced using as an illustration the example of the habitual smoker who has learned that smoking is bad for his health. He may have acquired this information from a newspaper or magazine, from friends, or even from some physician. This knowledge is certainly dissonant with cognition that he continues to smoke. If the hypothesis is correct, what would the person involved be expected to do?

I. He might simply change his cognition about his behavior by changing his actions; that is, he might stop smoking. If he no longer smokes, then his cognition of what he does will be consonant with the knowledge that smoking is bad for his health.
2. He might change his "knowledge" about the effects of smoking. This sounds like a peculiar way to put it, but it expresses well what must happen. He might simply end up believing that smoking does not have any deleterious effects, or he might acquire so much "knowledge" pointing to the good effects it has that the harmful aspects become negligible. If he can manage to change his knowledge in either of these ways, he will have reduced, or even eliminated, the dissonance between what he does and what he knows.

But in the above illustration it seems clear that the person may encounter difficulties in trying to change either his behavior or his knowledge. And this, of course, is precisely the reason that dissonance, once created, may persist. There is no guarantee that the person will be able to reduce or remove the dissonance. The hypothetical smoker may find that the process of giving up smoking is too painful for him to endure. He might try to find facts and opinions of others to support the view that smoking is not harmful, but these attempts might fail. He might then remain in the situation where he continues to smoke and continues to know that smoking is harmful. If this turns out to be the case, however, his efforts to reduce the dissonance will not cease.

Indeed, there are some areas of cognition where the existence of major dissonance is customary. This may occur when two or more established beliefs or values, all relevant to the area of cognition in question, are inconsistent. That is, no opinion can be held, and no behavior engaged in, that will not be dissonant with at least one of these established beliefs.(pp. 5-7)
and
Indeed, one of the important consequences of the theory of dissonance is that it will help us understand some circumstances where the cognitive elements do not correspond with reality. But it does mean that if the cognitive elements do not correspond with a certain reality which impinges, certain pressures must exist. We should therefore be able to observe some manifestations of these pressures. This hypothesized relation between the cognitive elements and reality is important in enabling measurement of dissonance, and we will refer to it again in considering data. (p. 11)

Festinger provides a much more technical discussion of this from pages 18-28. There are several things that Festinger notes with regards to you last comment. The first is that even with competing cognitions, we don't always see dissonance. After all we probably experience dissonance on some level all the time (but it may be unnoticeable). Festinger deals with this in part by discussing the notion of magnitude (pp. 15-17 of his introduction). When we talk about shelving something easily (and my emphasis is on how easy it is), it is evidence that the magnitude of the dissonance was not significant. If they were significant (or as you put it, if it was a "difficult" issue), then as Festinger notes in the quote above: "If this turns out to be the case, however, his efforts to reduce the dissonance will not cease."

Now, it is true that there might be a change. A person could well increase the magnitude that they assign to an existing cognition to cause the balance between the competing cognitions to shift. But, if that balance starts off heavily in favor of one particular side, then such a shift is even unnecessary in the face of competing cognitions. If you are playing with a red ball, and someone asks you if you like your green ball, unless you have some reason to believe that you are wrong in knowing that the ball is red, you aren't going to adopt the idea that the ball is green. The situation might be modified somewhat if you knew that you (or the other person) was color blind. But in general terms, the cognition of what you see is given a magnitude of weight far above the cognition of what the other person has expressed that they see.

So while an LDS person might encounter new cognitions, if they don't change, and if there is no behavioral shift, then its likely that they haven't experienced the feeling of discomfort identified as cognitive dissonance. And it certainly wouldn't produce something that we could look at and call cognitive dissonance.

Ben M.


That's fascinating, Ben--thanks for posting the quotes. I think you're spectacularly wrong in your interpretation of this vis-a-vis LDS culture and belief, though. The Church, after all, has got built-in mechanisms for dealing with feelings of dissonance: wavering members get counseling from the bishop; they are told to pray and read the scriptures more frequently. They are told to pay tithing, etc. You might respond that these are things that Mormons do anyhow; I would respond that a renewed emphasis on these activities fits with the kind of "change" Festinger is describing. Suppose someone encountered material on Joseph Smith, felt "disturbed," and then went on a big reading binge, trying to find out as much as possible--this is still going to square with what Festinger describes: it still ought to be counted as "change". In fact, if you replace "smoking" with "Mormonism" in that first citation, it fits awfully well.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Franktalk
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Franktalk »

Drifting wrote:Because this organisation claims to be Gods one true Church on the Earth today with the only correct form of Priesthood and doctrine, and more correct scripture. Not just another man made organization.

One wouldn't expect Gods true Church to be ripe with hoax and deliberate distortion, yet here we are...


Last time I checked the church does not have clones of Jesus walking around as members. Last time I checked men were walking around as members. Men with all of their faults. Even if the written words are true the interpretation of men will be all over the place. This is somewhat verified in scripture.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

In heaven where we do not have the weakness of the flesh we see the Word as a witness that bears record. But on the earth in the flesh it is the Spirit that bears record. It must be direct communication between spirits so no error of the flesh can enter. It is true that the Word is a testimony of Jesus but the flesh is a bad instrument to use to discern it.

So even with a great foundation the church is still subject to the errors of man.
_ludwigm
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _ludwigm »

Franktalk wrote: Please name me one organization that teaches the entire truth about its past?

United States of America.

Do You disagree?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Drifting
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:
Drifting wrote:Because this organisation claims to be Gods one true Church on the Earth today with the only correct form of Priesthood and doctrine, and more correct scripture. Not just another man made organization.

One wouldn't expect Gods true Church to be ripe with hoax and deliberate distortion, yet here we are...


Last time I checked the church does not have clones of Jesus walking around as members. Last time I checked men were walking around as members. Men with all of their faults. Even if the written words are true the interpretation of men will be all over the place. This is somewhat verified in scripture.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

In heaven where we do not have the weakness of the flesh we see the Word as a witness that bears record. But on the earth in the flesh it is the Spirit that bears record. It must be direct communication between spirits so no error of the flesh can enter. It is true that the Word is a testimony of Jesus but the flesh is a bad instrument to use to discern it.

So even with a great foundation the church is still subject to the errors of man.


Wrong.
The Church has Prophets, Seers and Revelators who, on a weekly basis meet with Apostles and receive direct communication from Christ himself. Are you suggesting that isn't the case? Or that Christ has instructed them to withhold some stuff from the teaching manuals?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
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