The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

[_gdemetz]

You're wrong again Tobin. The reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost was given to the apostles on the day of Pentecost. This gift was conferred on them by Jesus as recorded in John 20:22. However, the Holy Ghost can come to anyone at anytime He sees fit. Elizabeth received a manifestation of the Holy Ghost when she saw the pregnant Mary (see Luke 1:41)!!!

[_Tobin]

You're wrong again Tobin. The reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost was given to the apostles on the day of Pentecost. This gift was conferred on them by Jesus as recorded in John 20:22. However, the Holy Ghost can come to anyone at anytime He sees fit. Elizabeth received a manifestation of the Holy Ghost when she saw the pregnant Mary (see Luke 1:41)!!!

Are you sure about that? http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/bd/holy-ghost?lang=eng

...For some reason not fully explained in the scriptures, the Holy Ghost did not operate in the fulness among the Jews during the years of Jesus’ mortal sojourn...

It seems the Church doesn't agree with you and it seems the Savior in the scriptures doesn't agree with you either.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[_gdemetz]

I never said that the Holy Ghost operated in it's fullness! I merely quoted some scriptures, particularly one, to show you that you were wrong when you implied that they were no manifestations of the Holy Ghost until that day of Pentecost!

[_Tobin]

I never said that the Holy Ghost operated in it's fullness! I merely quoted some scriptures, particularly one, to show you that you were wrong when you implied that they were no manifestations of the Holy Ghost until that day of Pentecost!

Ok, very slowly and carefully read John 16:7 and then read Luke 24:13-32. This is about when Jesus was in their presense unglorified. Then see when the Holy Ghost is promised to them later in the very same chapter - Luke 24:49.

As I've told you feelings are insufficient because they are open to interpretation. If you see God (or if the gifts of the Spirt are made manifest to a group of people like during the day of pentecost) or a messenger of God appears to you, those are real spiritual experiences. All others are subjective and open to real doubt and I have no reason to believe you what-so-ever. Or in other words, unless I see God and God tells me he told you something - or the Holy Ghost bears witness to me through the gifts of the Spirt, I have no reason to believe you. These are the good gifts of God that the true followers of God seek. They are certain, real, and you don't have to look any further than Joseph Smith's example to see how important they are. The reason I am a Mormon (and not an atheist) is because I saw God. I didn't feel it was something I should do. I didn't read some stupid book and have a warm feeling run down my leg about it. I saw God. Unless you have something similar in your life, you have no knowledge of God. God is not subjective. God is definitive. God is knowledge, reality and not up to debate and interpretation.

[_gdemetz]

Hello! Tobin, you stated that "they did not receive the Holy Ghost until the day of Pentecost" in order to disprove what I said about certain disciples having the influence of the Holy Ghost! I countered your argument by showing clearly that the Holy Ghost was made manifest to Elizabeth before that day! Case closed!

[_Tobin]

Hello! Tobin, you stated that "they did not receive the Holy Ghost until the day of Pentecost" in order to disprove what I said about certain disciples having the influence of the Holy Ghost! I countered your argument by showing clearly that the Holy Ghost was made manifest to Elizabeth before that day! Case closed!

You'd make a terrible lawyer. Read the scriptures and statements from the Church again and engage your brain with the following question - "Was Christ born yet?" Also, how do you account for all the other scriptures and statements from the Church that contradict your position?

[_Tobin]

...

Ok, let's just say I agree with most of what you said and don't feel like nit-picking at minor points that I don't agree with. However, I do disagree about your contention that God can only speak to "prophets, apostles and messengers". As far as I know, they are still mortal men (and women) with tiny brains. How do you account for this? I don't necessarily buy the idea that God only talks to a special class of humans that are "prophets, apostles and messengers" because they are more advanced that us and have bigger brains or something physically different from us. I believe God can speak with any person, so long as they are willing to listen and do what God commands. I believe the reason that God doesn't speak to most people isn't because God isn't speaking - but because people aren't listening and aren't willing to do what the Lord commands.

[_Roger Morrison]

Love to get into this FUNARAMA, but I gotta earn my keep... Contribute latter. Do yer best Sheryl, then I'm confident there will be some sense in the midst

[_sheryl]

...

Ok, let's just say I agree with most of what you said and don't feel like nit-picking at minor points that I don't agree with. However, I do disagree about your contention that God can only speak to "prophets, apostles and messengers". As far as I know, they are still mortal men (and women) with tiny brains. How do you account for this? I don't necessarily buy the idea that God only talks to a special class of humans that are "prophets, apostles and messengers" because they are more advanced that us and have bigger brains or something physically different from us. I believe God can speak with any person, so long as they are willing to listen and do what God commands. I believe the reason that God doesn't speak to most people isn't because God isn't speaking - but because people aren't listening and aren't willing to do what the Lord commands.

Hi Tobin!

Thank you for your response. I am happy to have a chance to speak more on this.

It is not that our brain is tiny, but that our consciousness - or our use of the brain - our mind, is tiny. And with a tiny mind one is in a box, blind. Now what we call the soul is also the consciousness, so one can use any term that feels right to them, but perhaps explaining the soul as consciousness, or better yet awareness, makes more sense. And so with our mundane senses, what are we aware of? With the use of our mundane senses, what can we perceive, what are the limits to our consciousness or soul with purely mundane senses to perceive with?

Some traditions refer to awakening as the expansion of consciousness - the actual stretching of our soul's ability to see, to hear. Hence able to know, to understand and thereby function with wisdom. And when we are talking about the expansion of our consciousness, we are speaking of being able to receive more of 'God'. Able to touch and encounter more or God, thus ultimately receiving God's Knowledge, Wisdom, and Understanding. The Mind of Christ, as Paul describes it.

Now we all have experienced some expansion of consciousness, say in studying for a test or trying to figure out an advanced math problem, we had to stretch our consciousness through effort, practice, focus and devotion, to be able to see into and receive understanding of the greater aspects of math. We also, and most importantly, experience an expansion of consciousness when we love. It is this latter expansion that draws us closer to God, love - expanding our consciousness so that we might see into others, see what they are experiencing, what they are thinking, developing empathy, compassion.

And so the greatest commandment - Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love others as your self - is the commandment to expand our consciousness, to make our soul, mind, and heart increasingly spacious!

And when we do this, more of God can get into our awareness, or perception. And as more of God gets into us, our ability to See and Hear the things of God likewise expands.

I hope that you see, we are all working on this greater mind, this expansion of consciousness! This is the journey. This is purification. Obstacles to our being able to love others is likewise obstacles to the expansion of our soul, obstacles to drawing near to God. And so perhaps you see why sin keeps us separate from God. Sin, or missing the mark, not loving God or others, keeps us from Seeing, Hearing, Knowing and Understanding, thus keeping us from God, who is the Source of these things, or energies or attributes.

Those who are prophets have experienced an expansion of consciousness so that they can touch more of God, and bring into materiality what they touch - God's Word, messages, understanding, as well as Light and Healing, for the people. Apostles have united fully with God, and embody God's attributes fully in this world, bringing in the greatest understanding, Light and Healing for the people.

When the Bible speaks about knowing and being known, this is what is being discussed, or communing with God face to face.

I hope this helps!

Shalom and may all beings know God!

Sheryl

[_sheryl]

I just wanted to add, that the reception of the Holy Spirit is what works in us to draw our soul out, or to expand it, expand our awareness/consciousness, so that we might See and Hear. The Holy Spirit is what purifies us from the obstacles that keep us bound up in our little box mind - fears, negativities.

If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Abiding is cleaving, attaching, this is what expands our consciousness further, finding God's Word, and cleaving to it.

However, when the Spirit of truth, has come, It will guide you into all truth.

This is how the Holy Spirit guides us - purifying us of the obstacles that keep our soul, awareness, consciousness from expanding, and then through our cleaving or abiding in this that we have found within us, our soul is expanded into awareness of, and eventually unity with, God.


Sheryl