What is the Miracle of Forgiveness? (revisited)

[_Jason Bourne]

I think that unless God tells you in this life that you are forgiven, you're pretty much waiting for the day of judgement. Theres an old saying that your testimony is not sealed until you are dead. That is to say that it is your life that bears witness to what you believed, not what you claimed.

The witness of the spirit will allow you to know that you are on the right path, and that Christ will forgive your sins if you continue to keep and uphold your covenants. That bears teastimony to the miracle of forgiveness, that Christ does indeed forgive sins and can present you clean to the Father.

No Gaz you are wrong and like many Mormons you do not understand the difference between justification and sanctification. Read the Book of Mormon carefully as well as D&C 20:1-38 and the book Believing Christ.

[_Gazelam]

What is the Law of justification? It is simply this "All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations (D&C132:7), in which men must abide to be saved and exalted, must be entered into and performed in righteousness so that the Holy Spirit can justify the candidate for salvation in what has been done. (1 Ne. 16:2; Jac. 2:13-14; Alma 41:15, D&C 98; 132:1, 62.) An act that is justified by the Spirit is one that is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, or in other words, ratified and approved by the Holy Ghost. The Law of justification is the provision the Lord has placed in the gospel to assure that no unrighteous performance will be binding on earth and in heaven, and that no person will add to his position or glory in the hereafter by gaining an unearned blessing.

Mormon Doctrine p. 408

I don't think I said anything different on the subject that McConkie didn't say also. Sanctification is tied into this principle.

Moro. 10:32-33
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

The commandment is to sanctify ourselves. (D&C 39:18) This is accomplished by being obedient to the "law of Christ" (D&C 88:21, 34-35)and is posible because of his atoning sacrifice. (D&C 76:41) And "all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me," saith the Lord, "Cannot be sanctified." (D&C 101:5)

[_Roger Morrison]

Excuse me Gaz, you said:

The commandment is to sanctify ourselves. (D&C 39:18) This is accomplished by being obedient to the "law of Christ" (D&C 88:21, 34-35)and is posible because of his atoning sacrifice. (D&C 76:41) And "all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me," saith the Lord, "Cannot be sanctified." (D&C 101:5)

You are most welcome to believe as you will. However, the ideas put forth in your post are of no relevence to enjoying the blessings/rewards of living according to the teachings of Jesus. Except in the halls and minds of Mormons.

"...endure chastening..." is a term of Victorian Calvanism. It is NOT of Jesus!! Except in LDSism! Jesus 'taught' and foregave. His only "chastening" was of the self righteous Scribes and Pharasees who in these times are more LDSish than otherwise, IMSCO. 'Sanctification' belongs in the turn of the last century's "Holiness Movement". They are not Jesus' words.

I think you might have more credibility if you studied Jesus' associations and teachings, prayerfully, and less time with McKonkie. I could say more but... Warm regards, Roger

[_Gazelam]

Roger,
Why Did God ask Abraham to sacrifice Isacc? For the same reason, we will all need to pass through tests ourselves.

Isaiah 48:9-11
9 ¶ For my name’s sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

Zech. 13:9
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Mal. 3:2-3
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s ffire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Heb. 11:17
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Rev. 3:18-21
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and achasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


And that's just a few of the Bible verses that I came across on the subject. I can go on and on.

What it boils down to is:
Abr. 3:25
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;


Gaz

[_Gazelam]

I heard the prophet Joseph say, in speaking to the Twelve on one occasion: "You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and (said he) God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God" - John Taylor, JD 24:197, June 18, 1883

[_Inconceivable]

Where do I start, Gazelem?

D&C 132 is the most heart destroying of all Mormon scripture. It is the justification of betrayal of the most sacred of all covenants between a husband and wife. Born again does not come to mind when I think of the revelation on Mormon adultery and the unatural justification for bastard children. What a wretched legacy to pass on for generations. This gives legitamacy to which verses?

I recall a talk given by McConkie (1980'ish). He ripped on those that were overemphasising developing a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

The irony of his statements are that a personal relationship with Jesus is the fruit of living a charitable life (1 Cor 13, Ether 12, Moroni 7).

I know you mean well, but I am not seeing common ground between you and I on this topic, Gaz - except that perhaps we were both spiritually "born of God" - like each and every single one of all God's children


"that's one of life's little injustices, you're never aloud to choose your own relatives" - "Spur" Harrison, the other brother (Man from Snowy River)

[_Jason Bourne]

What is the Law of justification? It is simply this "All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations (D&C132:7), in which men must abide to be saved and exalted, must be entered into and performed in righteousness so that the Holy Spirit can justify the candidate for salvation in what has been done. (1 Ne. 16:2; Jac. 2:13-14; Alma 41:15, D&C 98; 132:1, 62.) An act that is justified by the Spirit is one that is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, or in other words, ratified and approved by the Holy Ghost. The Law of justification is the provision the Lord has placed in the gospel to assure that no unrighteous performance will be binding on earth and in heaven, and that no person will add to his position or glory in the hereafter by gaining an unearned blessing.

Mormon Doctrine p. 408

I don't think I said anything different on the subject that McConkie didn't say also. Sanctification is tied into this principle.

Moro. 10:32-33
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

The commandment is to sanctify ourselves. (D&C 39:18) This is accomplished by being obedient to the "law of Christ" (D&C 88:21, 34-35)and is posible because of his atoning sacrifice. (D&C 76:41) And "all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me," saith the Lord, "Cannot be sanctified." (D&C 101:5)

I think McConkie is in error and confuses justification with sanctification as well. Mormon Doctrine might be a fine reference but it gets a bunch of stuff wrong. Are you aware of the history of the book at all?

[_Gazelam]

D&C 132 is the most heart destroying of all Mormon scripture.

You might need to make yourself aware of the fact that most of the sections of the Doctrine and Covenants have layers of doctrine, just like the chapters in the New Testament. The beginning of the book focuses on the ratifying power of the Holy Ghost when used in conjuction with the sealing power of the priesthood and its covenants.

I recall a talk given by McConkie (1980'ish). He ripped on those that were overemphasising developing a personal relationship with Jesus Christ

Here is an excerpt from that talk:

"Some ("holier-than- thou" students) begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed. In this conception a current and unwise book, which advocates gaining a special relationship with Jesus, contains this sentence - quote: "Because the Saviour is our mediator, our prayers go through Christ to the Father, and the Father answers our prayers through his son. " Unquote. This is plain sectarian nonsense. Our prayers are addressed to the Father, and to him only. They do not go through Christ...You have never heard the First Presidency or the Twelve...advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so called special and personal relationship with Christ...never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate and intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Saviour...I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer's system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church." (Bruce McConkie, Speech at BYU on March 2 1982).
McConkie also stated:

"We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well about what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense - the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to Him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God first, the Creator." (Ibid.).

What he is obviously speaking against is an inordinate zeal and an unhealthy obsession. Later in that talk he states this:

We love and serve both the Father and the Son.

In the full, final, and ultimate sense of the word the divine decree is:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy might, mind, and strength; and in the name of Jesus Christ thou shalt serve him. [D&C 59:5]

And Jesus also said:

If ye love me, keep my commandments. [John 14:15]

These, then, are the commandments of commandments. They tie the Father and the Son together, as one, so that both receive our love and service.

Christ himself loves, serves, and worships the Father.

Though Christ is God, yet there is a Deity above him, a Deity whom he worships. That God is the Father. To Mary Magdalene, the first mortal to see a resurrected person, Jesus said:

I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. [John 20:17]

All of us, Christ included, are the spirit children of the Father; all of us, Christ included, seek to become like the Father. In this sense the Firstborn, our Elder Brother, goes forward as we do.

The plan of salvation is the gospel of the Father

The plan of salvation originated with the Father; he is the Author and Finisher of our faith in the final sense; he ordained the laws by obedience to which both we and Christ can become like him.

The Father did not ask for volunteers to propose a plan whereby man might be saved. What he did was ask whom he should send to be the Redeemer in the plan he devised. Christ and Lucifer both volunteered, and the Lord chose his Firstborn and rejected the amendatory offer of the son of the morning.

Thus Paul spoke of "the gospel of God, . . . concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:1–3). It is the Father's gospel, it became the gospel of the Son by adoption, and we call it after Christ's name because his atoning sacrifice put all of its terms and conditions into operation.

The talk can be read in ints entirety here:http://speeches.BYU.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6843

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Gaz, About Abe sacrificing his son: From my first hearing/reading that story in one of my first PH/SS classes in the 50's, i was struck with the disingenuousness of it. If anything, i am more convinced than ever that is based simply on melodrama and artistry. It bears no positive influence on me what so ever. However, i do have compassion on those who take it literally... You said:

And that's just a few of the Bible verses that I came across on the subject. I can go on and on.

What it boils down to is:
Abr. 3:25
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

The "Bible verses" you refer to are obviously in print. Not one is found in the 4 Gospels, which claim to be closer to Jesus' teachings & sayings as best we have them, than any other. So Heb. & Rev. while they might encourage 'better-living' by self incrimination, they are nothing more than misrepresentations of the Good News that a personal relationship with "God" & Jesus is the birth-right of all...

Abr. 3:25, once again is little more than from a drama script. Nice, but to think it as Divine Dialogue is the choice of the reader. You might, i don't. And as i understand Jesusism, "God" loves us both equally. Don't you agree?

"What it all boils down to is," All are called, but few choose--to follow the "Master". Why do they so choose? Because they know not the voice of "God". They rather give ear to cunning Priestcrafts that lie in wait to deceive. And thus, they are taken gently by the hand are led from the "truth that frees" into fear and trembling awaiting delivery from their self-inflicted agonies into a land of milk, honey & joy. Truth be known, it's here & now to those with "ears to hear"...

Gaz, Moroni offers advice that extends beyond the Book of Mormon. By the spirit of truth we determine truth. I encourage you to read, study, pray as you seek, AND you will find. It is an ongoing process. It doesn't stop with the first 'find'... Keep on seeking... Warm regards, Roger

[_Gazelam]

I think McConkie is in error and confuses justification with sanctification as well. Mormon Doctrine might be a fine reference but it gets a bunch of stuff wrong. Are you aware of the history of the book at all?

I am perfectly aware that the tone of the book was changed, as well as a key piece of doctrine after a revelation was received that changed it. When it was originally edited it was done so by other General authorities includeing Spencer W, Kimball.

If what I have said is incorrect, please explain it to me.