The Other Mormon Heroes

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
_LCD2YOU
_Emeritus
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:30 pm

Post by _LCD2YOU »

Blixa wrote:Ah, thanks for your comments! I still haven't gone back, but you make some good points.

"The church welcomes inquisitiveness" - NOT
Heh. Too true!
Not just the LDS but the RCC, SBC, Methodists, etc.

Even so called "open minded people" who are spiritual, have bumper stickers that proclaim "My Goddess gave birth to your god", etc., do not like when someone has the audacity to ask them about their "proof" and "evidence".

Most times you can find a great deal of "evidence" that their "proof" in the "cases" that say "80" and somethng about Kentucky.
Knowledge is Power
Power Corrupts
Study Hard and
Become EVIL!
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Inconceivable wrote:The GA's must hate this guy.


LOL! If memory serves, wasn't he threatened to be called in for a disciplinary council unless he took his website down, but then they wound up backing off?


I do not know. Do you have a reference or way we could check on that?
_moksha
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

I just thought I would list Dehlin's other well known podcast as well (need Internet Explorer to view)

http://www.mormonstories.org/whytheyleave/
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_mormonstories
_Emeritus
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:10 am

Post by _mormonstories »

(John Dehlin here.....)

Just a few clarifications...

I have never been approached by GA's. My bishop called me in once, but after we talked (and I showed him these types of letters: http://mormonstories.org/?p=242#comments ) he ended up telling me that he felt that what I am doing is a good thing.

I am not trying to tear the church down. I love the church, and am active in it. I am also not trying to change the church. I am only trying to help certain members who are struggling w/ their faith navigate those tricky waters towards a place of health. Once your faith is challenged, it's easy to make very bad decisions -- and a lot is at stake. I don't find apologetics particularly useful, but I also am not crazy about the tenor of ex-Mormon conversations.

So I'm trying to find a middle ground for struggling saints...that's all.

That's what I'm trying to do...anyway. Sometimes I do it better than other times, of course.
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

I think you do a damn fine job of it, John. Thanks for popping in here.
_moksha
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

Possibly less back biting here than MAD for John Dehlin's ideas.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Inconceivable
_Emeritus
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:44 am

Post by _Inconceivable »

mormonstories wrote:(John Dehlin here.....)

Just a few clarifications...

I have never been approached by GA's. My bishop called me in once, but after we talked (and I showed him these types of letters: http://mormonstories.org/?p=242#comments ) he ended up telling me that he felt that what I am doing is a good thing.

I am not trying to tear the church down. I love the church, and am active in it. I am also not trying to change the church. I am only trying to help certain members who are struggling w/ their faith navigate those tricky waters towards a place of health. Once your faith is challenged, it's easy to make very bad decisions -- and a lot is at stake. I don't find apologetics particularly useful, but I also am not crazy about the tenor of ex-Mormon conversations.

So I'm trying to find a middle ground for struggling saints...that's all.

That's what I'm trying to do...anyway. Sometimes I do it better than other times, of course.


John,

You are certainly not shoring up faith in the man (Joseph Smith) and others. I read some of your stuff when I was searching for something wholesome to anchor myself to. After being appalled by many things you mentioned about past leaders and various events, it challenged me to discover whether much of it (that I had not already confirmed) was true.

I'm out.

Now, from a TBM standpoint (which I never will be again), your pods are that flaxen cord that would lure an unassuming believer to let go of the rod.

The historical dirt is pretty much all true. I will not follow, nor encourage my family to put faith in men that committed deplorable acts in the name of God.

For the life of me, I cannot fathom how a person (such as yourself) would remain founded in fidelity, integrity and virtue and yet place his faith on the words and revelations of those that fail dismally to measure up to your personal best. Where is the leadership? Surely there is a famine in the land.

This is why I bring your motives into question.
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

mormonstories wrote:(John Dehlin here.....)

Just a few clarifications...

I have never been approached by GA's. My bishop called me in once, but after we talked (and I showed him these types of letters: http://mormonstories.org/?p=242#comments ) he ended up telling me that he felt that what I am doing is a good thing.

I am not trying to tear the church down. I love the church, and am active in it. I am also not trying to change the church. I am only trying to help certain members who are struggling w/ their faith navigate those tricky waters towards a place of health. Once your faith is challenged, it's easy to make very bad decisions -- and a lot is at stake. I don't find apologetics particularly useful, but I also am not crazy about the tenor of ex-Mormon conversations.

So I'm trying to find a middle ground for struggling saints...that's all.

That's what I'm trying to do...anyway. Sometimes I do it better than other times, of course.


Hi John

Thanks for posting here. Keep up your good work and thanks from one who has benefited from what I view as your reasonable and rational approach.
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Inconceivable wrote:
mormonstories wrote:(John Dehlin here.....)

Just a few clarifications...

I have never been approached by GA's. My bishop called me in once, but after we talked (and I showed him these types of letters: http://mormonstories.org/?p=242#comments ) he ended up telling me that he felt that what I am doing is a good thing.

I am not trying to tear the church down. I love the church, and am active in it. I am also not trying to change the church. I am only trying to help certain members who are struggling w/ their faith navigate those tricky waters towards a place of health. Once your faith is challenged, it's easy to make very bad decisions -- and a lot is at stake. I don't find apologetics particularly useful, but I also am not crazy about the tenor of ex-Mormon conversations.

So I'm trying to find a middle ground for struggling saints...that's all.

That's what I'm trying to do...anyway. Sometimes I do it better than other times, of course.


John,

You are certainly not shoring up faith in the man (Joseph Smith) and others. I read some of your stuff when I was searching for something wholesome to anchor myself to. After being appalled by many things you mentioned about past leaders and various events, it challenged me to discover whether much of it (that I had not already confirmed) was true.

I'm out.

Now, from a TBM standpoint (which I never will be again), your pods are that flaxen cord that would lure an unassuming believer to let go of the rod.

The historical dirt is pretty much all true. I will not follow, nor encourage my family to put faith in men that committed deplorable acts in the name of God.

For the life of me, I cannot fathom how a person (such as yourself) would remain founded in fidelity, integrity and virtue and yet place his faith on the words and revelations of those that fail dismally to measure up to your personal best. Where is the leadership? Surely there is a famine in the land.

This is why I bring your motives into question.


Hi Inconceivable

Why don't you read some of the letters John linked to? For me the Church will never be the same. I do not think there is on true Church. But I like religion and I think the LDS Church is a pretty good religion even with its warts. For me Smith is an enigma. I think he was a man that started out with good intent but lost some of his way. I do not excuse the bad things he did. I still think that the Mormonism he taught has some grand ideas worthy of emulating and pursuing. John has inspired me not to chuck it all. I am happy people like him have made the church work for them and I can as well. You do not want to and that is ok.

I think John is also trying in a way to see that the issues that shocked you and others are taught more openly in perhaps a healthy and innoculating sort of way. He wants a more open history as do many like us. And sure, some may run into his stuff and still leave. Other may be finding a community of like minded LDSers that are disillusioned but want to remain LDS and participating for lots of various reasons.
_Inconceivable
_Emeritus
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:44 am

Judging them by their own self-proclaimed standards..

Post by _Inconceivable »

Jason Bourne wrote:Hi Inconceivable

Why don't you read some of the letters John linked to? For me the Church will never be the same. I do not think there is on true Church. But I like religion and I think the LDS Church is a pretty good religion even with its warts. For me Smith is an enigma. I think he was a man that started out with good intent but lost some of his way. I do not excuse the bad things he did. I still think that the Mormonism he taught has some grand ideas worthy of emulating and pursuing. John has inspired me not to chuck it all. I am happy people like him have made the church work for them and I can as well. You do not want to and that is ok.

I think John is also trying in a way to see that the issues that shocked you and others are taught more openly in perhaps a healthy and innoculating sort of way. He wants a more open history as do many like us. And sure, some may run into his stuff and still leave. Other may be finding a community of like minded LDSers that are disillusioned but want to remain LDS and participating for lots of various reasons.


Jason,

I understand. So long as John plays the protestant card (a break from the current Mormon leadership), he is simply rebellious, a wolf in sheep's clothing, a fly in the ointment to the powers that be. I think the only reason they have not asked him to back down (if that is the truth) is because they haven't decided how to go about it.

The primary reason so many of these histories are shocking is that the whoredoms were intentionally hidden just as a man and woman would fain wair a fig leaf to cover their nakedness (and remember who it was to first suggest such rediculousness).

27 And wo unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord! And their works are in the dark; and they say: Who seeth us, and who knoweth us? And they also say: Surely, your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay. But behold, I will show unto them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that I know all their works. For shall the work say of him that made it, he made me not? Or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, he had no understanding?

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 27:27)


I would add, we are who we are, when no one else is around.

If the leadership (Smith et al.) were not so inebriated with pride and even power, they would have humbled themselves and made a public confession and become the men God intended all of us to be. They never held themselves to the standard you and I (and perhaps even John) hold ourselves to. We even hold the current leadership to a higher standard - and today's leadership, although they will never in a thousand years say "thus saith the Lord.." have come up with inspirations like the "Proclamation of the Family" (180 degrees from the doctrine preached in the 1800's), or even the church's welfare system.

I am physically ill that all that is GOOD about the church is attributed to a handful of deified dirtbags that practiced a "religeon" that does not represent the fidelity of Mormonism as it is taught today. Joseph Smith could not even qualify for baptism, let alone a temple recommend to enter the building he's attributed to writing the standards for.

Jason, your personal morality is black and white. Smith's and the others only practiced the morality we were taught when the light was on. I honestly believe in my heart that I should expect a mentor/spiritual leader to live up to the same standards they have taught me - otherwise, they are little more than a sounding brass.

The church has always taught black and white, shall we judge them by anything but their own standard?

No?

rant off.
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