Urim & Thummim and Book of Mormon Translation

[_ludwigm]

The entire FAIR wiki is found here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_seer_stones

So I read this, and I think it made me dumber. I could feel IQ points dropping to the floor and shriveling up.
It amazes me that the ridiculous use of a rock for "revelation" is so completely rationalized in a way to try to make it seem so logical. Training wheels for receiving revelation? Really??
(Sorry if this isn't celestial enough - I toned it down best I could.)

Why don't people have to learn how to do something they have never done before? That is the human experience.

And who has had to do that before or since? Did SWK need to pull out a seer stone and practice receiving revelation before 1978? Did GBH have to dig a well to find a stone before he issued the proclamation on the family? Learning to receive revelation by using a stone seems to make about as much sense as learning to drive a car by eating an apple.

Sorry if this isn't celestial enough - I toned it down best I could.

Here are adult persons in these threads.
They are using computers, the products of the hated science. (You, who read this now, do the same.)
Educated by high schools (we called them middle school :-( in Europe ), educated by universities, having PhD and other titles.
In the real world, the people of the world change the heart of the ills, are flying to the Moon, are reading my license plate from the space.

And there are people who write

Book of Mosiah makes clear that the interpreters consisted of "two stones":
13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.
14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.

and they don't laugh and they get it seriously.

(Yes, there are ones who enlightened enough to throw away the ouija board when transfer to the seer stone.)
(And there are this ones, it is worth of read, it is about a hungarian called Ludwig. )


I have no argument. I have a hungarian joke:

The transylvanian man (You know, they are smart, impish, outspoken), is standing in the zoo before the giraffe and says:
- No. There is no such animal.

[_TrashcanMan79]

I am looking for the illustration. I beg your patience.

Sure thing. I appreciate you looking.

[_charity]

And who has had to do that before or since? Did SWK need to pull out a seer stone and practice receiving revelation before 1978? Did GBH have to dig a well to find a stone before he issued the proclamation on the family? Learning to receive revelation by using a stone seems to make about as much sense as learning to drive a car by eating an apple.

I don't think you understand the magnitude of what happened with the Restoration. And who was called upon to do something not previously done.

Joseph Smith was first called as a prophet, at age 14. He was uneducated. He could read, but barely write. His religious training through Bible study and the churches of the time did not prepare him for the work that was ahead. With the exception of the Bible, all of our standard works, except for a very few sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, were revealed through him. As part of the Restoration he had visitations from most of the prophets throughout time.

And to do all this, he had to overcome the almost ingrained teaching that the Heavens were closed. You seem to ignore that the use of seer stones and the Urim and Thummim is testified to throughout the scriptures. Since that is obviously one of God's methods of revealing His word, why not to Joseph? God didn't need to reinvent the wheel.

And since the seer stone Joseph had is still had in the Church, wht makes you so sure that it is not being used from time to time?

[_ludwigm]

And who has had to do that before or since? Did SWK need to pull out a seer stone and practice receiving revelation before 1978? Did GBH have to dig a well to find a stone before he issued the proclamation on the family? Learning to receive revelation by using a stone seems to make about as much sense as learning to drive a car by eating an apple.

I don't think you understand the magnitude of what happened with the Restoration. And who was called upon to do something not previously done.
Joseph Smith was first called as a prophet, at age 14. He was uneducated. He could read, but barely write. His religious training through Bible study and the churches of the time did not prepare him for the work that was ahead. With the exception of the Bible, all of our standard works, except for a very few sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, were revealed through him. As part of the Restoration he had visitations from most of the prophets throughout time.
And to do all this, he had to overcome the almost ingrained teaching that the Heavens were closed. You seem to ignore that the use of seer stones and the Urim and Thummim is testified to throughout the scriptures. Since that is obviously one of God's methods of revealing His word, why not to Joseph? God didn't need to reinvent the wheel.
And since the seer stone Joseph had is still had in the Church, wht makes you so sure that it is not being used from time to time?

"throughout the scriptures"
- the scriptures written by the same man who defined the seer stones and the U&T and their usage.


Really, there are people who are talking about such nonsense, without laughing. (See my previous comment at the end of 1st page of this thread.)

[_charity]

"throughout the scriptures"
- the scriptures written by the same man who defined the seer stones and the U&T and their usage.

The Urim and Thummim are described in the Old Testament and in ancient contemporary sources. Joseph Smith had nothing to do with them.

Really, there are people who are talking about such nonsense, without laughing. (See my previous comment at the end of 1st page of this thread.)

Enjoy your laughter now. It will be short lived.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

"throughout the scriptures"
- the scriptures written by the same man who defined the seer stones and the U&T and their usage.

The Urim and Thummim are described in the Old Testament and in ancient contemporary sources. Joseph Smith had nothing to do with them.

Really, there are people who are talking about such nonsense, without laughing. (See my previous comment at the end of 1st page of this thread.)

Enjoy your laughter now. It will be short lived.

Charity's favorite afterlife threat. Pathetic.

[_charity]

"throughout the scriptures"
- the scriptures written by the same man who defined the seer stones and the U&T and their usage.

The Urim and Thummim are described in the Old Testament and in ancient contemporary sources. Joseph Smith had nothing to do with them.

Really, there are people who are talking about such nonsense, without laughing. (See my previous comment at the end of 1st page of this thread.)

Enjoy your laughter now. It will be short lived.

Charity's favorite afterlife threat. Pathetic.

Don't care to address your mistake about only Joseph knowing about the Urim and Thummim?

[_Boaz & Lidia]

"throughout the scriptures"
- the scriptures written by the same man who defined the seer stones and the U&T and their usage.

The Urim and Thummim are described in the Old Testament and in ancient contemporary sources. Joseph Smith had nothing to do with them.

Really, there are people who are talking about such nonsense, without laughing. (See my previous comment at the end of 1st page of this thread.)

Enjoy your laughter now. It will be short lived.

Charity's favorite afterlife threat. Pathetic.

Don't care to address your mistake about only Joseph knowing about the Urim and Thummim?

Look here, there is no proof any such thing existed or now exists. Only claims made by people who you trust, but most do not.

If the Mormon church has these so called seer stones then why are they not used by other "prophets" that came after Smith?

[_ludwigm]

Really, there are people who are talking about such nonsense, without laughing.

Enjoy your laughter now. It will be short lived.

As usual, You have misunderstood me - maybe deliberately. I don't have a laugh at that people, I am sorry for them. Here is the XXI. century around us but inside of many head are storming the thoughts from the Middle Ages. Unfortunately it seems to be long-lived ( if we look at the moslim countries or at US ).
What I said is that one thing is to talk or read about seer stones and whatnot - for example I accept the palantir in the "Lord of the Rings" as a contemporary video device in a fiction - the other thing is to get it seriously.

[_moksha]

Exo 28:30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.

Lev 8:8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.

Num 27:21 And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.

Deu 33:8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;

1Sa 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophet

Ezr 2:63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.

Neh 7:65 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and Thummim