Follow the leader blindly...

[_moksha]

I don't subscribe to the notion that ALL apostates are the same, nor that they ALL leave for the same reasons. I know, and respect the fact that individual people and their situations are much more complex than that.

Sounds right on.

What do you think about the use of the word Infidels rather than Apostate?

[_Amaterasu]

I would maintain that many who leave the church, leave because they HAVE put the leaders on an impossible pedestal. And then, when they (the leaders) do or say something human, or downright dumb, they (members) become disillusioned and leave.

As for me, while I respect the authority of church leaders, I could honestly care less if I saw them walking down the street. They are men, good men in my opinion, but men nonetheless.

Hmmm. Yanno in cults usually people fortify and rally to their leader when there are uhohs. Hmmm..... :)
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[_Pokatator]

I don't think anyone in the Church follows blindly. At some points, everyone does a gut check, receives confirmation, and continues on.

The numbers for home teaching are abysmal. Truly, 'way down in the abyss. In other words: bad. If they're making up numbers, they've got a lot to learn.

If it were me, I'd abolish home teaching to all except shut-ins. I would replace it with a monthly pot-luck after fast Sunday services are over.

I don't mean to derail a thread but BC your comment got me curious about this. I know of several Evan churches that basically only visit the shut-ins. But when they do make these visits they take Communion (Sacrament) to them. Do the Mormon visitors do this for their shut-ins? I have been gone quite a long time, but even when active and during priesthood duties when younger I don't remember ever doing it. If it is not done,.... why not?

Thanks in advance.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Yes, it's done.

[_ajax18]

Should we always acquiesce to whatever Church leaders ask of us?

Our own reasoning and conscience can be good guides to let us know if it is something we should be doing. All men are subject to error, so there is no holiness accrued by compounding the error. The last thing we need is for the Church to be turned into some cult of obedience. When we put our leaders on a pedestal, to be worshiped as infallible, we are doing a disservice to both them and ourselves.

Your thoughts?


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I think nearly every internet Mormon would agree with you Moshka, including the MAD board. But part of the problem I have with the whole thing is the fact that your statement would probably never be permitted in Church. So I guess that leaves you to explain this to people you care about. Then you have to consider who will hear what you say and the ramifications of reputation. That always makes things a little trickier.

I think internet Mormons and exMormons alike would agree that an individual should know terms of the contract before he agrees to it. One thing for sure is that if young people in the Church haven't come across a leader who demands blind obedience, they will. I think it'd be good to help them face this issue and how to deal with it ahead of time. Of course you'll have to do this outside Church. That's part of the problem with this whole question, the fact that stating the truth as you succinctly put it above can't seem to be said in Church without somehow being seen as tearing down the Church.

I suppose some parents do explain this to their children, especially before going on a mission. I wish someone would have warned me about demands for blind obedience. I definitely could have dealt with it better when the time came than I did.

[_Seven]

I would maintain that many who leave the church, leave because they HAVE put the leaders on an impossible pedestal. And then, when they (the leaders) do or say something human, or downright dumb, they (members) become disillusioned and leave.

Hi Wayneman,
Welcome to the board. :)

I can tell you based on my own personal experience & with other family and friends (including internet friends) who become disillusioned with Mormonism, that we never expected perfect leaders and knew they were fallible men. Their personal sins, & off the record statements would not affect my faith. That is such a common fallacy used by LDS when someone expresses shock and disgust over Joseph Smith's history.

However, you do understand that all the claims of Mormonism rest on the testimony of Joseph Smith so his character and history plays a huge part in your testimony. If you were not given correct information about his experiences with God and those teachings, could that affect your testimony to learn the unvarnished truth? There are Mormons who claim they don't have a testimony of history so learning disturbing parts of his life shouldn't make someone leave the faith. Of course they have a testimony of history! Without the history of Joseph's First Vision, angelic visitations, translation, and experiences with God, we wouldn't have a religion.



If Joseph had affairs, that would not affect my faith. It's that he claimed GOD TOLD HIM TO DO IT that hurts my faith. That he used the same seer stone and method to treasure hunt as he did to translate the Book of Mormon. That his teachings and doctrines from God might be just his opinion.

I would expect God's mouthpiece to not use a personal weakness for the female flesh by radically changing the definition of marriage and leading the church astray with the harmful degrading practice of polygamy. I would expect God's Prophet to not appear like a charlatan and cult leader in his history, commanding married women and young teenagers to marry him secretly or lose their exaltation!
I would expect God's prophet to tell his wife Emma of his secret plural marriages and get her consent before living "the principle" instead of deceiving and betraying her. Let her choose if she wants to remain married to a man living that "restored principle."

Investigators are only asked to pray about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and are forced into having an umbrella testimony of the church right from the start. They are not told the Prophets could be just giving opinions. They are taught that the heavens have been opened and God's word continues through them! "The prophet can not lead the church astray."

Here is what it comes down to for me. (and I believe many others)
We believed that these men were God's mouthpiece when they proclaimed to speak as such. We were not allowed to enter the Lord's house if we did not sustain them as Prophets, seers, and revelators. When you learn from studying church history that these revelations, Conference talks, and "doctrine" from previous LDS Prophets are now only opinion 100 years later, it destroys your faith in the claims of the LDS church.
There can no longer be such a thing as "a true church" or "restoration" when LDS Prophets continue to change these restored truths and doctrines and use "continuing revelation" to cover up past mistakes. LDS Prophets have such a poor record on revealing and interpreting the scriptures, I'm not sure how anyone could retain a testimony in their divine calling to communicate with God.

[_cinepro]

Do the Mormon visitors do this for their shut-ins? I have been gone quite a long time, but even when active and during priesthood duties when younger I don't remember ever doing it.

Every ward I've been in had priesthood holders assigned to visit the members who couldn't make it to Church and had requested the sacrament.

[_cinepro]

I would maintain that many who leave the church, leave because they HAVE put the leaders on an impossible pedestal. And then, when they (the leaders) do or say something human, or downright dumb, they (members) become disillusioned and leave.

What Seven said.

Basically, the Church paints itself into a corner with the credibility, reliability and trustworthiness of its leaders and their claims.

The problem isn't that doubters have placed LDS leaders on some sort of pedestal of unrealistic expectations. The problem is the more we learn about the true nature of their fallibility, the more they start to look eerily similar to the fallible leaders of other religions.

[_moksha]

I would expect God's mouthpiece to not use a personal weakness for the female flesh by radically changing the definition of marriage and leading the church astray with the harmful degrading practice of polygamy. I would expect God's Prophet to not appear like a charlatan and cult leader in his history, commanding married women and young teenagers to marry him secretly or lose their exaltation!

The good thing is that eventually wrongs get righted for whatever reason, and we can sail on the sea of faith in a straight course again.

In the present, we can help maintain this smooth sailing by, as Ajax said, being alert to the dangers of blind obedience.