Obeying Church Leaders as a pervasive theme

[Guest]

"Because us Mormons believe that the leaders of the Church are appointed and inspired by God. It's not a difficult concept."

This sounds nice but is foolish. Some of these Leaders in various places and capacities were criminals, child molesters and dirtbags before being 'appointed' to their callings. Do you really believe a God of conscience and truth instructs(in whatever way you choose to think of it) leadership that practices some of the perversions and criminal/dishonest activities we see these jerks do?

Like the Stake President in Cache Valley, Utah who is known to have followed women into the bathrooms and molested them... many times. This type of behavior is sick but he was still called to his office. Or those who cheat others in business? Those having affairs with members of the congretation?

Somehow I don't believe much of leadership is inspired at all. They may wish they were but if the Holy Ghost really came down and gave many of these jokers a 'burning in the bosom' they would drink some Pepto Bismol.

From Mark Hoffman to Feliz Urioste(the man who was sealed to its 'husband' in TheTemple) inspiration is sorely lacking in "Church Leaders".

And you really expect people to 'obey' idiots like this?

[_beefcalf]

Colby,

I think you misunderstand. Zzyzx was referring to men who were, at the time of their calling, and/or while serving in the calling, committing these deplorable acts.

The leadership of the church claims to have the gift of discernment. If that was the case, how could they give a temple recommend to a man dressed as a woman, in order for him to marry another man in the temple? How could they call men to high positions and not know about their dark secrets?

Joseph Smith (and apparently God himself, if you believe the D&C) was fooled into believing that John C. Bennett was a great asset to the church. It was only later, after the Lord had praised him in revealed scripture, that it was discovered he had been an adulterer and philanderer the entire time. How did Bennett fool God?

The answer many of us here have come to is this: he didn't. Smith simply invented the revelations he then claimed were from God.

From John C. Bennett, to the Apostle Lyman in the 1940s, to Paul H. Dunn, to Mark Hoffman... The church leadership has a track record of being absolutely unable to detect the frauds who walk amongst us. We should not be so very surprised that they are likewise unable (or unwilling) to detect Joseph Smith's original fraud, the one that started this entire ball of wax.

[_moksha]

Even we Mormons have received the Gift of Nuremberg: That is that we must be responsible for our own evil doings. I have confidence that the majority of us Mormons would decline a request by our Prophet to strap a bomb to our backs and wander into a crowded market place to explode it. There is a point to which our own innate sense of right and wrong kicks into gear, no matter how pervasive the push toward obedience in all things.

[_beefcalf]

I have confidence that the majority of us Mormons would decline a request by our Prophet to strap a bomb to our backs and wander into a crowded market place to explode it.

I agree with your assessment, moksha, but that leaves the minority who would. Who was it that frequents these boards who is said to be willing to commence a homosexual relationship with a prophet of God if so commanded?

Although I believe that much richness has been added to human culture by the influence of religious beliefs, we cannot discount the downside, either. When someone believes with something approaching one-hundred percent certainty that they are directed by God, or by his direct mouthpiece, there is a marked willingness to do things quite inhuman, things they would not do under other circumstances. That unforgettably horrific September 11th... all those innocent victims... an act committed by people who believed they were directed by the will of God. And their religious leader who has thus far escaped judgement. (Not to mention the parallel events that followed 144 years later, to the day.)

[_Roger Morrison]

Many Church presentations, lessons and even internet dialog among LDS people center,
in some way, upon the theme of "Do what you are told by Church leaders".

Why is that?


.

Because of intense yet subtle conditioning. And personal disposition.
Personal disposition makes some more vulnerable and subject to LDS conditioning, than others.
As you point out Mok. there is a line that most would not cross. The exception that breaks the spell, to reveal most LDSs play a game that makes them feel good. Why not? But in private, "rules" are bent to accommodate circumstances.
What % of members pay a full tithing, on gross? On net?
Mormons are no less human than others. They just pretend to be. . .

Keep asking your great questions!

Roger

[Guest]

I am only too familiar with 'inspiration' and leadership in LDSinc at the higher levels as well as at the ward and branch level. From mission field desperation to Stake callings to the top levels they suffer from the same problem. Very little 'inspiration' and a lot of desperation.
Elders and sisters getting transferred by 'inspired darts' as a mission President and his AP throw darts at the board to see where to assign these kids.
Stake officers who are called while being crooked enough that those who live there won't deal with them. Short of criminal prosecution but dishonest as the day is long. Stake Presidency officers that no married man or father of young women will let interview their spouse or daughters. General authorities who are not welcome in some Stakes due to their business interests and what they do as well as what they have done.

Yes, inspiration is supposed to be part of the deal and many do try for it. Too often is is missing and 'best guess' is what happens.

How else do you explain two men getting sealed in the Temple? How else do you explain Hoffman fooling "God's representative here on Earth"?

If LDSinc leadership were truly inspired PR hacks and lawyers would not be running the whole scam.

[_j-bug]

Many Church presentations, lessons and even internet dialog among LDS people center, in some way, upon the theme of "Do what you are told by Church leaders".

Why is that?

Because that is how most members want it.

And, that being the case, I can predict what ultimately shall come about.

Remember how in this past conference Pres. Uchtdorf passed on some very important advice he received from Pres. Faust? He said (paraphrasing) the members are very gracious BUT DO NOT INHALE! Let's face it, stars only shine when the sun has gone down. We are one of the most idolatrous generations that have ever been and we want it to stay that way, even if it means we keep the sun down.

As far as I can tell, our present leaders are well-meaning but there could come a time when we have leaders who don't get Pres. Faust's advice in time and inhale. If they become very high on the notion that they are beyond reproach and infallible, this could lead to very terrible injustices being perpetrated upon those who simply wish to remain true to the Lord and the truth.

This is the exact same platform that Lucifer was given to operate from before he was cast down. There were enough people who wanted to hear what he had to say so he was able to be sustained in the ranks until he reached the top and became bold enough to usurp the original plan the Father gave. The boldness to do this would only come when the vast majority of members were indoctrinated to "just follow the leaders" even if they go contrary to prior "Thus saith the Lord" revelations.

Because of this, a point was finally reached that people realized they needed to exercise their right to not sustain church officers who do not perform their duty. This is the basis upon which Lucifer was cast down and I foresee this shall happen again when the Savior returns to burn the tares and clean house.

Paul details this quite well in 2 Thessalonians 2 where he makes reference to the standing apostasy that the Savior has to put down upon his return. What apostasy? The "man of sin" who has arrogated himself as an infallible being has positioned himself to the church as God. Paul says this is allowed to happen because the people "had not a love of the truth".

The idolatry of the Saints is the cause of this.

[_Joseph]

j-bug wrote: "here were enough people who wanted to hear what he had to say so he was able to be sustained in the ranks until he reached the top and became bold enough to usurp the original plan the Father gave"

Are you sure it was The Father's plan? Or was it Jesus plan?

If it was the Fathers plan then why would any intelligence/spirit be presenting their own at the time?

[_j-bug]

j-bug wrote: "there were enough people who wanted to hear what he had to say so he was able to be sustained in the ranks until he reached the top and became bold enough to usurp the original plan the Father gave"

Are you sure it was The Father's plan? Or was it Jesus plan?

If it was the Fathers plan then why would any intelligence/spirit be presenting their own at the time?

I use the title or office of Father so that I am referencing the mantle of authority rather than a specific individual. That way it is a true statement for any cycle of Creation past, present and future.

In the case of the War in Heaven in the pre-existence relative to this current Creation cycle that I mentioned above, Jesus had not been born yet so He wasn't known by that name. The Plan Jesus promoted and gave His life for was that of His Father so as far as I'm concerned the Plan of Jesus is the Plan of the Father.

Pertaining to what Paul is prophecying of for our future, we are full circle and standing right now in the new War in Heaven that takes place prior to the new Creation now in the works. The whole pattern is going to play out all over again.

[_Joseph]

bugs, you and belmot will have a great time together at sleepovers.