Already the fallout

[_TAO]

How would you resolve the issue then?

BC would say men make mistakes.

[_ajax18]

How would you resolve the issue then?

BC would say men make mistakes.

Which is excusable in Church if they would come clean with it from the beginning. But they really don't. They're so authoritarian. A lot of them would like to brain wash people into thinking they don't make mistakes. That's why I still think it important for young people whether LDS or another denomination to guard their minds.

And this business of all authority that Trump's science due to the self interest of doctors, lawyers, politicians. That's real evil and to me it goes beyond just making a mistake. That's a sin, a very ugly sin, in my view as one on the bottom of the foodchain who suffers because of their shenanigans.

[_TAO]

Which is excusable in Church if they would come clean with it from the beginning. But they really don't. They're so authoritarian. A lot of them would like to brain wash people into thinking they don't make mistakes. That's why I still think it important for young people whether LDS or another denomination to guard their minds.

Part of the reason, I think is because people are so willing to jump on them for it. Look at this forum... they jump on 'em all the time. As of such, they have to be very careful of saying things that cause people to doubt what they say; for the Lord speaks through them.

And this business of all authority that Trump's science due to the self interest of doctors, lawyers, politicians. That's real evil and to me it goes beyond just making a mistake. That's a sin, a very ugly sin, in my view as one on the bottom of the foodchain who suffers because of their shenanigans.

Lol, yes, some are waaaaay too anti-science... but then again, I've met people who are the opposite way around... in other words, they trust science too much. I used to be like that myself. Just as it's good not to take them as inerrable, it's not good to take science as inerrable either.

But yah, really, because science is getting new developments all the time, it shouldn't be a big effect on anybody's testimony. New stuff is always coming, and things that were thought facts yesterday are not today, that they are.

[_ajax18]

Part of the reason, I think is because people are so willing to jump on them for it. Look at this forum... they jump on 'em all the time.

I'm not sure why that should matter if what we're saying is true. I have seen spiteful posters on this forum but I post here because I believe in Dr. Shades opening statement. "We all want the truth." That's all I want. If the truth is ugly or problematic, I'll have to deal with it and that's my burden to bear. But I want the truth and I don't think it's right for them to be less than an open book. They certainly have no problem expecting me to be an open book for them, even if it means that information might leak out and do me damage in the future. And responses like this where the only answer from the stake is, "Who asked the question, get rid of him," are pretty low in my view. I sure hope they are a representation of an imperfection in men and not a reflection of the character of God.

As of such, they have to be very careful of saying things that cause people to doubt what they say; for the Lord speaks through them.

Aren't peoples doubts their own responsibility? The only thing I ever asked them for was to be honest with me. What's wrong with that? I believe the Lord has spoken through them. But I also believe there have been LDS leaders who claimed the Lord was speaking through them and they were wrong and on rare occasions insidiously wrong. But they didn't just claim it. They were really domineering and manipulative about it. They sure didn't state it the way you did, "This is as much as the spirit has revealed to me so far, I hope this helps, but take it or leave it." No it was more along the lines of "Latin American GA" shouting and beating his chest, "I'm a seventy and my word is the law. Do it and believe everything I say without question or I'll punish you." People like that could never build a church out of nothing the way Joseph Smith did with God's help. In my experience all they're doing is infiltrating and screwing up a church that was already handed to them. My crossroads with the Church is that I just don't see people doing this as good. They do, just as I explained with my mission experience. These are the kind of people they're putting in leadership. God's Rotweillers

It's been a hard fight for me to regain control of my mind after the brainwashing I got on my my mission. I'm still not sure whether it would be right to put my child through that. I can handle it now. People like that cannot intimidate me anymore, but it wasn't always so. It makes me feel sad now because after having shared it, I know my own father who is among the best of men, feels the same way for me. And I hate to think I put him through that. Because unlike a a Church leader, I know he really does care about me. And unlike God's rotweillers, there's no question he won't hear and if he doesn't know, he's not afraid to admit as much.

So to any Church authorities that are reading this. This is why people go on missions and come back wanting to get as far away from the Church as they can, even though we still believe in Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith. Your first offense was that you set people up to do this brainwashing, and you did it for the numbers without any regard to the missionaries. Your second offense was discounting what I told you when it happened and asked you how I should deal with it. The first offense was forgivable. The second offense was squirrelly and almost inexcusable, and given your unwillingness to discuss the issue in a nondefensive manner, you may never get any of these people back. But from the way you're acting, I'm not sure you really even care. You'll pay peoples rent if they'll come out to church once or twice and get baptized. But you somehow seem very good at ignoring the concerns of those who are paying tithing, teaching your Sunday School classes, and serving your missions. And more than happy to rape their minds if you think it might better the statitstics. If all your going to do is pay lip service to Jesus of Nazareth but then run the Church like the doctors, lawyers, educational supervisors, corporate CEOs, and insurance salesmen like you are, than that's the level of trust you are going to get from me. President "area authority" always said, "You know if we we were a business we'd expect some baptisms or we'd just fire you. That comment still bothers me to this day.

[_TAO]

I'm not sure why that should matter if what we're saying is true. I have seen spiteful posters on this forum but I post here because I believe in Dr. Shades opening statement. "We all want the truth." That's all I want. If the truth is ugly or problematic, I'll have to deal with it and that's my burden to bear. But I want the truth and I don't think it's right for them to be less than an open book. They certainly have no problem expecting me to be an open book for them, even if it means that information might leak out and do me damage in the future. And responses like this where the only answer from the stake is, "Who asked the question, get rid of him," are pretty low in my view. I sure hope they are a representation of an imperfection in men and not a reflection of the character of God.

I agree, it shouldn't really matter, however, there is a problem that makes church leaders have to consider it.

The problem is, that some people aren't very thorough. What I mean is they will see a criticism of the church they don't think can be answered and balk... when that very thing can be answered. Really, I think this is what the leadership is worried about; things they say can be turned by other people into something completely different than they meant, and when presented to the viewer who is quite doubtful about it, they don't spend the time asking God about it, and they don't spend time looking at counter-points either.

Really, this is what I think the leaders are worried of... of people who have not spent the time thinking about the questions they will be bombarded with by critics. And some won't do what they should do in order to find the answer - that is turn to God. Some don't have that testimony that is needed for such, yet. And I think the leaders would rather let God lead them to that very-strong testimony on his own, rather than force members to gain a very-strong testimony or leave.

In a way, I know it sounds weird, but I've been grateful in a way that the church didn't teach me these things; it made me rely on God, who speaks through his prophets, and not 'the church as a general organization'.

For me and you, the truth is freeing and light, but God I think slowly leads us up to that state, a little at a time, precept upon precept. He doesn't want us to go where we don't have the capability to go yet, and some members haven't made themselves of a will to go to the high limits yet. So the leaders wait, and though it seems somewhat of a pain to us, there is a good reason behind it, I think.

Aren't peoples doubts their own responsibility? The only thing I ever asked them for was to be honest with me. What's wrong with that? I believe the Lord has spoken through them. But I also believe there have been LDS leaders who claimed the Lord was speaking through them and they were wrong and on rare occasions insidiously wrong.

Actually, I am going to tell you one of my own little beliefs, and that is - if you have the capability to change something, it is your responsibility. They have the capability to provide a great positive or negative thing upon the people of the church. It is their responsibility to lead them to a place where they gain a testimony, and do not doubt, a little at a time; cautiously. Sometimes one says something too much; and the results are that critics pounce, and those who do not trust in God enough fall away. As of such, I think they've grown cautious; even though there are you and I who know there is nothing the critics could say that could alter our faith.

But they didn't just claim it. They were really domineering and manipulative about it. They sure didn't state it the way you did, "This is as much as the spirit has revealed to me so far, I hope this helps, but take it or leave it." No it was more along the lines of "Latin American GA" shouting and beating his chest, "I'm a seventy and my word is the law. Do it and believe everything I say without question or I'll punish you."

Actually, I didn't think the words of his speech were that way. I thought he was cautioning us to trust in the prophet. Which is important, I think, because the Lord sends the prophet to teach us. There is a balance, I think. You must have personal revelation, that you must. But God also sends prophetic revelation, that he does, and it's just as important. The church tries to encourage personal testimony and revelation as much as possible, without causing people to stray from the prophetic revelation. Because both are important to us; and we can sometimes 'go overboard' with our personal beliefs on things. Sometimes I have to take a step back, because I think I've taken things too far (I know because the spirit feels uncomfortable). Thus, the words of the prophet, were more really a caution, in my view, not to think of oneself as inapplicable to prophetic revelation.

People like that could never build a church out of nothing the way Joseph Smith did with God's help. In my experience all they're doing is infiltrating and screwing up a church that was already handed to them. My crossroads with the Church is that I just don't see people doing this as good. They do, just as I explained with my mission experience. These are the kind of people they're putting in leadership. God's Rotweillers.

Indeed, this does happen, and people often take things way to far; that's why I try to focus on the prophet's guidelines; for I know President Monson is a good man who does not take things too far, but is earnest and kind and thoughtful and connected to the Lord. So in terms of church, rather than focus on the errors that have been made in the local leadership (there are some errors, but there are also many successes and wonderful people, a good example being my bishop), I tend to try to focus on the prophet instead, who I fell is closest to Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

It's been a hard fight for me to regain control of my mind after the brainwashing I got on my my mission. I'm still not sure whether it would be right to put my child through that. I can handle it now. People like that cannot intimidate me anymore, but it wasn't always so. It makes me feel sad now because after having shared it, I know my own father who is among the best of men, feels the same way for me. And I hate to think I put him through that.

Indeed, sometimes, as said, people take things way to far, and problems result. Another reason to trust in the Spirit and the Prophet, your two purest links to God, that they are.

Because unlike a a Church leader, I know he really does care about me. And unlike God's rotweillers, there's no question he won't hear and if he doesn't know, he's not afraid to admit as much.

Your father must be a good man, that he must... but you must realize, that men are men, that they are. They have their own trials they must worry about themselves. You must not blame them; but instead focus on the faults of oneself, that you should. It clears the mind, that it does, and other's faults become something so small compared to your own, that you hardly concern yourself with them anymore.

It is truly a great thing... one of the things it has helped me with is getting rid of the spirit of contention, because whenever I notice a fault in someone else, I remember mine are greater, and I only mention it to them if it will truly help them in a positive and cooperative way.

So to any Church authorities that are reading this. This is why people go on missions and come back wanting to get as far away from the Church as they can, even though we still believe in Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith. Your first offense was that you set people up to do this brainwashing, and you did it for the numbers without any regard to the missionaries. Your second offense was discounting what I told you when it happened and asked you how I should deal with it. The first offense was forgivable. The second offense was squirrelly and almost inexcusable, and given your unwillingness to discuss the issue in a nondefensive manner, you may never get any of these people back.

Ajax, this tone is why local church leaders wall up sometimes, if you talked about it in a more placating tone, I think they might be more willing to listen... really, it does help... because then people don't focus on walling, but instead focus on change, that they do =).

But from the way you're acting, I'm not sure you really even care. You'll pay peoples rent if they'll come out to church once or twice and get baptized. But you somehow seem very good at ignoring the concerns of those who are paying tithing, teaching your Sunday School classes, and serving your missions. And more than happy to rape their minds if you think it might better the statitstics. If all your going to do is pay lip service to Jesus of Nazareth but then run the Church like the doctors, lawyers, educational supervisors, corporate CEOs, and insurance salesmen like you are, than that's the level of trust you are going to get from me.

Again, speak with a more mild, trusting and placating manner, and they will speak back with a better manner themselves, that they will. And if they don't (some of them will change, some of them won't), you know which ones you can consider your friends. Speak like Christ would want you to unto people, and they will open up.

President "area authority" always said, "You know if we we were a business we'd expect some baptisms or we'd just fire you. That comment still bothers me to this day.

I must say that that quote is quite awful indeed. Christ would not say such, that is for certain.

[_ajax18]

Yeah TAO, I think you're right. I'm starting to calm down already. And you're right about my tone in some of that. But I'm not making any of these things up. They happened and they were said. And I'm sure some people have endured worse.

Just gotta keep repeating my favorite scripture sometimes. I really loved going to Church at one time. But it's been hard because I'm pretty stuck on honesty and transparency and I'm the type of person who can energize with a conversation with myself better than conversing with other people, unless I find a very enlightened other person. That's rare. I've never had a spiritual question the Holy Ghost wouldn't answer for me. It's just been conversing with other people that has been a struggle for me at times. Perhaps if I were to step back and listen, listen the spirit could answer that too.

[_TAO]

Yeah TAO, I think you're right. I'm starting to calm down already. And you're right about my tone in some of that. But I'm not making any of these things up. They happened and they were said. And I'm sure some people have endured worse.

Don't worry, I know your not making it up. And bad things have happened... but as Rahim Khan in Kite Runner said, "There is a way to be good again."

Just gotta keep repeating my favorite scripture sometimes.

I do this too... the scriptures really help me relax and think... I was just reading Alma 32 today... you know, faith is not a perfect knowledge, and faith is like a seed, etc. Yah... it was so... rejuvinating. I loved it. =D. The scriptures are so wonderful!

I really loved going to Church at one time. But it's been hard because I'm pretty stuck on honesty and transparency and I'm the type of person who can energize with a conversation with myself better than conversing with other people, unless I find a very enlightened other person.

This is the same way with me... I don't converse with other people well, and I tend to argue... it stinks =/. I have much more success when I am alone, and it's just me and the Lord, and I can talk to him with little to no outside interrupting forces. I do enjoy doing that, I do.

With church... for me, it's kinda for me like a reminder to trust in the basics... it's a time where I don't have to be tempted; it's a time where I can listen to the speeches and ponder about God, and rejoice in his greatness. I don't know if others view church like this... but yah... I sorta look at it like... 'why did God have this speaker speak to me today?' or 'How can I change my life to be more true to God today' sorta thing. I guess it's my re-focuser in a way, if ya' know what I mean. It's my time to be a humble innocent child once again =).

That's rare. I've never had a spiritual question the Holy Ghost wouldn't answer for me. It's just been conversing with other people that has been a struggle for me at times. Perhaps if I were to step back and listen, listen the spirit could answer that too.

I agree, the spirit is a most wonderful tool... oftentimes, people won't have the answers... but the spirit always will, that I know. Sometimes it takes days to get it though... but I am willing to wait... I am willing to wait forever for my answers; I am willing to wait till they view me as ready to receive the information, that I am. Sometimes I'm not humble enough, sometimes I'm not true enough, sometimes something else. But when I humble myself, and make myself true, and become what God wants me to be, the answers flow like a gushing fluid from a pitcher above my head.

Like you, I've found that people, in general, don't tend to have the answers - and even when they do, sometimes, it is better to find it on one's own. I'm not so sure I'd have a testimony if God hadn't shown me what he could answer with that brilliantly Godly Spirit he has sent us.