The Easter Story (continued from board with rude moderators)

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_Mortal Man
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Re: The Easter Story (continued from board with rude moderators)

Post by _Mortal Man »

Kishkumen wrote:I think the more important considerations would be how he anticipated others responding to the witness of women. How well regarded was the testimony of a woman in Jewish culture at the time?

I recall a thread on that a little while ago. It seems that in the very earliest Christian churches, women had more power to speak than they did under Judaism, but then they were pushed down as the churches grew.
_Kishkumen
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Re: The Easter Story (continued from board with rude moderators)

Post by _Kishkumen »

Mortal Man wrote:I recall a thread on that a little while ago. It seems that in the very earliest Christian churches, women had more power to speak than they did under Judaism, but then they were pushed down as the churches grew.


What I had intended to suggest was that Paul's Jewish peers might have been unmoved by female witnesses of the resurrection, which might result in him emphasizing the male witnesses exclusively in some contexts. This, of course, would not directly relate to the power of women within the church, which seems to have been considerable in the early years.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Mortal Man
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Re: The Easter Story (continued from board with rude moderators)

Post by _Mortal Man »

Kishkumen wrote:What I had intended to suggest was that Paul's Jewish peers might have been unmoved by female witnesses of the resurrection, which might result in him emphasizing the male witnesses exclusively in some contexts.

Yes, that's certainly a possibility. Having a female as the first witness would have been a liability to a lot of people.

There are two possibilities for Mary Magdalene: either her role was passed along orally for four decades or else it was invented by Mark. The question is, which is more likely, given Paul's silence? Paul would have heard about her from Peter during their 15 day visit. If he/they decided to hush it up then how did the story survive?

Is there anything about the story to suggest it pre-dates Mark (like there is for 1 Cor. 15:3-5 that suggests it predates the epistle)?
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Re: The Easter Story (continued from board with rude moderators)

Post by _Kishkumen »

Mortal Man wrote:There are two possibilities for Mary Magdalene: either her role was passed along orally for four decades or else it was invented by Mark. The question is, which is more likely, given Paul's silence? Paul would have heard about her from Peter during their 15 day visit. If he/they decided to hush it up then how did the story survive?


I don't know. First of all, I trust Paul about as much as I trust Cicero, which is to say that I don't trust Paul very much at all. I think he had his own version of Christianity, which probably differed significantly from what was happening in Jerusalem, and that his version, which ended up spreading more broadly, ended up prevailing.

Who knows what the interactions between Paul and Peter actually were. We have Paul's version. And, as I said about my trust of Paul....

Mortal Man wrote:Is there anything about the story to suggest it pre-dates Mark (like there is for 1 Cor. 15:3-5 that suggests it predates the epistle)?


My guess is that the traditions about Mary Magdelene could be anchored in something historical, and I have no way of knowing what that might be. In any case, aspects of the tradition will have been appealing to early female members in the church, including women in leadership roles. This is not to say, necessarily, that the version we have is the most flattering depiction.
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_Rob Bowman
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Re: The Easter Story (continued from board with rude moderators)

Post by _Rob Bowman »

Mortal Man,

My reply to your opening post continues.

As post-Pauline leaders with new agendas took over, Christianity began to splinter into competing sects, largely divided along social status lines. Groups of elite Gnostics perpetuated Paul’s Orphic disdain for the flesh (Romans 7:18-8:18) by rejecting any idea of a physical resurrection. Their chief goal was to become free forever from the taint of matter and the shackles of the body, and to return to the heavenly realm as pure spirits. The uneducated masses however, were disturbed by the idea of losing their body. They were not impressed by highbrow arguments for a disembodied immortality; they just wanted to get their bodies back, which is what the Jewish sects and pagan cults offered.[6] As the Christian movement spread throughout the ancient world, it bumped up against these neighboring cults with their rival gods and competing mythologies.

Most of the other gods, including the Jewish god, were able to raise people bodily from the dead. Indeed, physical resurrections were all the rage before and during the first century.[7]


The Jewish God was indeed believed to be able to raise people bodily from the dead; this is what the Jews meant by “resurrection from the dead.” And this is one of the reasons why it is simply not credible for you to claim that Paul did not believe in a bodily, physical resurrection.

On the other hand, Greek philosophy and at least most of Greek religion was skeptical about the resurrection of the body, which is probably the source of the skepticism at Corinth that Paul sought to counter in 1 Corinthians 15. The one primary source you cited in an endnote for pagan belief in resurrection exemplifies nothing of the kind. Cicero refers to Greco-Roman belief in mortals becoming gods, not in mortals dying and then being raised from the dead.

One Greek god in particular, Ἀσκληπιός Σωτήρ (Asclepius the Savior), was so adept at bringing people back from the dead that Hades feared no more dead spirits would come to the underworld.[8] Coincidentally, "Jesus" (properly, Yeshua) means "Savior" in Hebrew.


No, the coincidence is not that Yeshua meant Savior (actually, “Yahweh is Savior,” as you mention in your note 10) but that Asclepius happened to be called “Savior.” That is a coincidence and nothing more. I don’t think that Mary and Joseph decided to name their son so as to allude to Asclepius!

This fact, combined with Jesus’ reputation as a “fisher of men”, made it only natural for first-century Christians to construct an acronym from the Greek word for “fish” (ΙΧΘΥΣ) in which Jesus, like Asclepius, was assigned the title of “Savior”; i.e., ΙΧΘΥΣ = Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ (Jesus Christ, God’s son, Savior). This acrostic became a confession of faith, in conjunction with the “friend or foe” fish symbol adapted from Greek and Roman pagans in response to persecutions, which had commenced under Nero (AD 64-68).


One stubborn little fact: the apostle Paul had already called Jesus “Savior” a decade earlier (Phil. 3:20). This proves that the description of Jesus as Savior, on which you lean so hard to establish a post-Pauline connection between the Christian bodily resurrection doctrine and the pagan Asclepius cult, actually dates too early for your theory to work.

Paul’s reference to Jesus as Savior, not coincidentally, comes in the context of resurrection. He says that Christ “will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body” (Phil. 3:21). Note that our present “lowly body” will not be replaced, but will be “transformed…to be like his glorious body.”

As large numbers of lower-class Jews and pagans streamed into the church, bringing their former beliefs along with them, a natural syncretism developed between Yahweh and several other gods.[9] Additionally, many Jewish Christians were of the opinion that Jesus was the earthly manifestation of Yahweh.[10] These two forces combined to imbue Jesus with popular features of several other deities, especially those of Asclepius.


Paul was among those Jewish Christians who viewed Jesus as Yahweh (e.g., 1 Cor. 1:2-9, cf. Joel 2:32; 1 Cor. 8:4-6, cf. Deut. 6:4; Phil. 2:9-11, cf. Is. 45:23; etc.). He did so in a context of stiff resistance to syncretism (e.g., 1 Cor. 8-10). In retrospect, Christians saw the name Jesus as profoundly revelatory of his divine identity as well as his divine, redemptive work (e.g., Matt. 1:20-23). But these ideas were present at the very beginning of the Christian movement, as documented famously by such scholars as Larry Hurtado and Richard Bauckham.

You go on to compare an artistic representation of Jesus’ healing of a sick girl with a fourth-century BC stele that, you say, represents Asclepius healing a sick girl. This comparison is rather weak. The picture of Jesus healing a sick girl depicts Jesus raising Jairus’s little girl from the dead. This healing is narrated in the Gospel of Mark (5:21-43), written no more than about forty years after the ministry of Jesus, and contains various indications of historicity. These include the reference to the name of Jairus (for which no plausible explanation can be given for Mark or his source inventing the name), the unlikelihood of Christians in the 60s or 70s making up a story about Jesus helping a synagogue official, and Mark’s quotation of Jesus’ exact Aramaic words Talitha kum (5:41). The stele dates from roughly eight centuries after the time of Asclepius, if he even existed (i.e., it would date from about 20 times later than Asclepius than Mark dates after Jesus). It appears to picture Asclepius attending to a woman, not a little girl; the woman is sick or infirm, not dead (as indicated by the fact that she is pictured laying on her side); and Asclepius appears to be either physically examining her or administering some sort of physical treatment to her.

It is easy to draw “parallels” between Jesus and almost any religious or mythological figure, as long as one is selective, uses Christian-sounding language to describe the other figure, finesses the narratives to make them fit neatly, and ignores the positive evidence for the historicity of Jesus. Jesus and the Buddha both were of a royal line; each had a revelation under a tree; each had disciples; each spoke in often enigmatic sayings; each challenged the religious status quo of their culture; etc. Isn’t this fun? But it has absolutely nothing to do with the origin of the Jesus story. Asclepius has the merit of being a significant figure in Hellenistic religion in Jesus’ part of the world, but the parallels still are not good evidence for the claim that Christian beliefs about Jesus were significantly indebted to Asclepius devotion.
_Mortal Man
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Re: The Easter Story (continued from board with rude moderators)

Post by _Mortal Man »

Rob Bowman wrote:The Jewish God was indeed believed to be able to raise people bodily from the dead; this is what the Jews meant by “resurrection from the dead.” And this is one of the reasons why it is simply not credible for you to claim that Paul did not believe in a bodily, physical resurrection.

I'm just reading what Paul wrote; Jewish beliefs weren't monolithic. Nevertheless, I'm perfectly fine with Saul of Tarsus believing in a physical resurrection. It's his beliefs after his vision that count. Paul didn't thrust his fingers into Jesus' wounds, or feed him a fish, or get breathed on; rather, he experienced a light and heard a voice, while his companions saw/didn't see a light but didn't hear/heard a voice.

Acts 9:
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man:


Evidently, this nontactile vision taught him that Jesus was a spiritual being.

On the other hand, Greek philosophy and at least most of Greek religion was skeptical about the resurrection of the body, which is probably the source of the skepticism at Corinth that Paul sought to counter in 1 Corinthians 15. The one primary source you cited in an endnote for pagan belief in resurrection exemplifies nothing of the kind. Cicero refers to Greco-Roman belief in mortals becoming gods, not in mortals dying and then being raised from the dead.

Cicero would have been familiar with the Iliad, wherein Homer describes Asclepius as a physician to wounded soldiers on the battlefield at Troy. He was also familiar with accounts that Asclepius had been killed by Zeus with a thunderbolt, then raised from the dead and placed in the heavens. The cult practice of sleeping with snakes argues for a physical presence in the temples, since the point apparently was to not know if it was a snake or Asclepius touching you.

I don’t think that Mary and Joseph decided to name their son so as to allude to Asclepius!

It was a toss up between "Jesus" and "Asclepius Jr." ;)

One stubborn little fact: the apostle Paul had already called Jesus “Savior” a decade earlier (Phil. 3:20). This proves that the description of Jesus as Savior, on which you lean so hard to establish a post-Pauline connection between the Christian bodily resurrection doctrine and the pagan Asclepius cult, actually dates too early for your theory to work.

Yeah, I was waiting for you to bring that up. The Epistle to the Philippians was written 5-9 years after Paul's visit to the Corinthian Asclepium. He could have picked up the "savior" lingo there, while he was looking at the body parts (see note [2], I can send you the full paper if you like), or he may have picked it up from it's fairly common usage and/or application to several other mythological heroes.

You go on to compare an artistic representation of Jesus’ healing of a sick girl with a fourth-century BC stele that, you say, represents Asclepius healing a sick girl. This comparison is rather weak. The picture of Jesus healing a sick girl depicts Jesus raising Jairus’s little girl from the dead. This healing is narrated in the Gospel of Mark (5:21-43), written no more than about forty years after the ministry of Jesus, and contains various indications of historicity. These include the reference to the name of Jairus (for which no plausible explanation can be given for Mark or his source inventing the name), the unlikelihood of Christians in the 60s or 70s making up a story about Jesus helping a synagogue official, and Mark’s quotation of Jesus’ exact Aramaic words Talitha kum (5:41). The stele dates from roughly eight centuries after the time of Asclepius, if he even existed (i.e., it would date from about 20 times later than Asclepius than Mark dates after Jesus). It appears to picture Asclepius attending to a woman, not a little girl; the woman is sick or infirm, not dead (as indicated by the fact that she is pictured laying on her side); and Asclepius appears to be either physically examining her or administering some sort of physical treatment to her.

I dunno, Jesus clearly states that Jairus' little girl is not dead.
39 And entering in, He * said to them, “Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep.”

It is easy to draw “parallels” between Jesus and almost any religious or mythological figure, as long as one is selective, uses Christian-sounding language to describe the other figure, finesses the narratives to make them fit neatly, and ignores the positive evidence for the historicity of Jesus. Jesus and the Buddha both were of a royal line; each had a revelation under a tree; each had disciples; each spoke in often enigmatic sayings; each challenged the religious status quo of their culture; etc. Isn’t this fun?

It would be even more fun to list a slew of church fathers who enumerated the similarities between Jesus and Buddha, to dig up shrines to Buddha all over first-century Palestine and to find Buddha-specific language in the New Testament.

But it has absolutely nothing to do with the origin of the Jesus story. Asclepius has the merit of being a significant figure in Hellenistic religion in Jesus’ part of the world, but the parallels still are not good evidence for the claim that Christian beliefs about Jesus were significantly indebted to Asclepius devotion.

Other pagan deities played significant roles as well. Biographer Roger Lancelyn Green said that C. S. Lewis believed that “Christianity fulfilled paganism” and “paganism prefigured Christianity” -- C. S. Lewis: A Biography, pp. 274, 30; (1974).
_Milesius
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Re: The Easter Story (continued from board with rude moderators)

Post by _Milesius »

MM, your ability to regurgitate unsubstantiated and/or discredited scholarship is impressive. However, I dispute that Mark and John, at the very least, were written after 70 A.D., which upends the progression in your yarn.

Also, you wrote:
Here and elsewhere (e.g., Romans) he is simply saying that we are really spirits encased in a mortal shell. The husk is subject to corruption and perishes but the core of the seed remains pure. He is not saying we take our husks with us into the next life, especially one with corrupted hands and feet.


If that were the case, then Paul would not have written about clothing oneself in immortality. Rather, he would have spoken about casting off mortality. Your interpretation does not mesh at all with endusasthai.
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_Mortal Man
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Re: The Easter Story (continued from board with rude moderators)

Post by _Mortal Man »

Milesius wrote:I dispute that Mark and John, at the very least, were written after 70 A.D.

Feel free to present some evidence for this.

If that were the case, then Paul would not have written about clothing oneself in immortality. Rather, he would have spoken about casting off mortality. Your interpretation does not mesh at all with endusasthai.

This is pretty fuzzy. We could speculate forever about what metaphors he should have chosen. I prefer to focus on his clear statements of fact and the glaring omissions in his listing of the resurrection appearances.

Why don't you answer the questions near the end? No one has made a substantial attempt at that yet.
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Re: The Easter Story (continued from board with rude moderators)

Post by _CuriousForever »

Mortal Man wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:I think the more important considerations would be how he anticipated others responding to the witness of women. How well regarded was the testimony of a woman in Jewish culture at the time?

I recall a thread on that a little while ago. It seems that in the very earliest Christian churches, women had more power to speak than they did under Judaism, but then they were pushed down as the churches grew.


But note the power and strength of Mary in searching, searching, questing, reporting, running to and then running fro, to make sure her Master's body is secured and buried correctly. Peter looks into the tomb and then goes away. Mary keeps searching (ah, what a symbol for us all), and to her comes He who is her Lord. Another week will pass before Jesus stands amongst his disciples hiding in a locked room. No wonder men were jealous of her specifically and women generally. We often are, even today.
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Re: The Easter Story (continued from board with rude moderators)

Post by _madeleine »

Mortal Man...I read through your post, and don't have anything to add to the discussion.

Except today I ran across some writings by Edward Schillibeeckx. He was a 20th century theologian who ran into trouble with the Roman Curia more than once, because of his writings. He was also a major participant in the Vatican II Council.

At any rate, his writings were never condemned and will be studied for decades to come. But particular to your post! You might find his book "Jesus: An Experiment in Christology" to be interesting. In it, he states the opinion that, theologically speaking, the empty tomb is an "unnecessary hypothesis".

Yes, that got him into trouble.

Peace.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
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