...and still Ash has no evidence supporting Mesoamerica...

[_jon]

...it is not the prophets and apostles that are inspired and come forth with new truths and share these with the world... apologists seem to be at the head of any information that comes forth to members.

Hmmm...

That line of thinking would suggest to me that either the Prophets and Apostles are uninspired (and therefore not actual Prophets, Seers and Revelators) or that the apologists are apostates...

[_truth dancer]

...it is not the prophets and apostles that are inspired and come forth with new truths and share these with the world... apologists seem to be at the head of any information that comes forth to members.

Hmmm...

That line of thinking would suggest to me that either the Prophets and Apostles are uninspired (and therefore not actual Prophets, Seers and Revelators) or that the apologists are apostates...

Or both?

;-)

~td~

[_Kishkumen]

What always made me wonder is that Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on earth yet these guys "inflated" numbers by about, what, 3,000,000 or so?

I think he meant gospel correct.

[_jon]

What always made me wonder is that Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on earth yet these guys "inflated" numbers by about, what, 3,000,000 or so?

I think he meant gospel correct.

That seems to me to be a fair point.
However, if the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel and the prophet pronounced that gospel 'correct' how did he end up ignoring it?

Jacob 1:15
And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Jacob 2:24
Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

Jacob 2:27
Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.

Mosiah 11:2
For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but ... he had many wives and concubines.

Ether 10:5
Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines.

[_truth dancer]

Apologetic response regarding polygamy.

A man having multiple women as "wives," is fine if God commands it but it is not fine unless God commands it.

Those who are condemned in the Book of Mormon engaged in the practice without the command from God.

Simple as that!

~td~

Of course, this doesn't really make sense but it is the current apologetic.

The bigger question to contemplate is, why does God demand men have many wives, or why does God care who these few guys are having sex with? I mean really... what is up with this anyway? LOL!

[_Kishkumen]

That seems to me to be a fair point.
However, if the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel and the prophet pronounced that gospel 'correct' how did he end up ignoring it?

I think the issue was one of Joseph Smith's obsessions. He struggled with himself as a person who lived in a very puritanical society, but who had a very strong sex drive that was, at the same time, somewhat nurturing. He came to justify the sexual urges by making sure that he remained responsible for the women with whom he carried on an intimate relationship. He married them.

[_truth dancer]

He came to justify the sexual urges by making sure that he remained responsible for the women with whom he carried on an intimate relationship. He married them.

Hey Kish,

Well, he didn't exactly remain responsible for any wife, including Emma. He was pretty much one of those guys who wanted to collect girls and women.

I think it was all about power and sex and had nothing to do with being honorable.

~td~

[_Kishkumen]

Hey Kish,

Well, he didn't exactly remain responsible for any wife, including Emma. He was pretty much one of those guys who wanted to collect girls and women.

I think it was all about power and sex and had nothing to do with being honorable.

~td~

Well, he might have just knocked 'em up and let Bennett perform the abortions. Sometimes I think there is a tendency to reach too far in denying Smith any credit for virtue or humanity. I just don't buy it.

[_truth dancer]

Sometimes I think there is a tendency to reach too far in denying Smith any credit for virtue or humanity. I just don't buy it.

While I admit I do not find much virtuous about Joseph Smith, and view him as every other powerful cult and religious leader who took/takes sexual advantage of girls and women, try as I have, I cannot find a single speck of evidence that would make me think he "married" these girls and women out of a sense of honor or care.

Joseph Smith performed secret, unlawful, "marriages," with neighbor girls, his children's nannies, his house maids, his wife's friends... I just do not see how this equates to taking care of these girls and women, or giving them respect in any sense of the word.

It seems to me that his "marriages," (other than Emma), were more about finding a (sort of), acceptable way to have multiple partners, gain power, and feel elite.

But, I could be wrong.. maybe in some twisted way, Joseph Smith convinced himself he was doing them a favor?

Actually, now that I think about it, if he really believed he would be able to ensure exaltation to the families of the girls he married, then I suppose he did think he was helping them out.

But, then again, I do not think he really believed it.

~td~

[_Kishkumen]

Hey, truthdancer-

I can see what you are saying. And, while I do not believe in Joseph Smith being *the* prophet to restore Christ's one and only true church on the earth, and I certainly do not approve of polygamy, I think your view of Smith's polygamy is completely mistaken.

The problem, as I see it, is in the modern view of sex and the denigration of male sexuality as inherently violent and exploitative. I just think the whole idea is completely nuts. Sure, it serves a certain fringe social and political agenda, but it is more a dystopian nightmare than representative of reality.

Sex and religion are obviously part of the same mix, and unfortunately the unrealistic puritanical moralism of our society can only see that in the worst possible light. And that is kind of strange, if you ask me. I am not saying that anybody has this right. But I do firmly believe that the view that Joseph Smith was some kind of rapist, pedophile, or shameless rogue is very one-sided (not to mention distorted) and disregards a lot of evidence to the contrary.

As a historian, I simply can't buy into that. At the same time, I think polygamy was a mistake. I also think Joseph was a coward in his behavior toward Emma. I do also regard many of the people involved in this as victims of a sort, but I don't see them as victims of an amoral villain in the person of Joseph Smith, con artist.

While I admit I do not find much virtuous about Joseph Smith, and view him as every other powerful cult and religious leader who took/takes sexual advantage of girls and women, try as I have, I cannot find a single speck of evidence that would make me think he "married" these girls and women out of a sense of honor or care.

Joseph Smith performed secret, unlawful, "marriages," with neighbor girls, his children's nannies, his house maids, his wife's friends... I just do not see how this equates to taking care of these girls and women, or giving them respect in any sense of the word.

It seems to me that his "marriages," (other than Emma), were more about finding a (sort of), acceptable way to have multiple partners, gain power, and feel elite.

But, I could be wrong.. maybe in some twisted way, Joseph Smith convinced himself he was doing them a favor?

Actually, now that I think about it, if he really believed he would be able to ensure exaltation to the families of the girls he married, then I suppose he did think he was helping them out.

But, then again, I do not think he really believed it.

~td~