DCP - your June 4 Mormon Times article on John Whitmer

[_Daniel Peterson]

They didn't say they were really gold.

Quite so. And a gold alloy such as tumbaga would have, precisely, the appearance of gold:

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=393

Tin plates spray-painted gold would . . . um, not.

[_jon]

They didn't say they were really gold.

Quite so. And a gold alloy such as tumbaga would have, precisely, the appearance of gold:

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=393

Tin plates spray-painted gold would . . . um, not.

On a related subject (Nephite skills in metal alloy production) why hasn't anyone found a Nephite Sword? Or do you subscribe to the theory that these skilled metallurgists used wood for swords?

[_Daniel Peterson]

The Aztecs and certain other Pre-Columbian cultures certainly used wood for swords. And very effectively, too. At least if the conquistadores are to be believed.

I have no reason to believe that the Nephites as a whole and/or throughout their history were "skilled metallurgists." Do you?

[_jon]

The Aztecs and certain other Pre-Columbian cultures certainly used wood for swords. And very effectively, too. At least if the conquistadores are to be believed.

I have no reason to believe that the Nephites as a whole and/or throughout their history were "skilled metallurgists." Do you?

As you avoided answering the questions I asked I'll repeat them:
1. Why do you think a Nephite sword hasn't been found?
2. Do you believe Nephites used wood or steel for swords?

I will answer your question.
I think if a civilisation was skilled enough to produce gold plates that were an alloy (your suggestion) then I would say that they would be skilled in the use and manipulation and mixing of metals.

[_Buffalo]

They didn't say they were really gold.

Quite so. And a gold alloy such as tumbaga would have, precisely, the appearance of gold:

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=393

Tin plates spray-painted gold would . . . um, not.

Tin painted with gold paint also has the appearance of gold. That's, um, you know, what gold paint is for. Giving things the appearance of gold.

[_Buffalo]

The Aztecs and certain other Pre-Columbian cultures certainly used wood for swords. And very effectively, too. At least if the conquistadores are to be believed.

I have no reason to believe that the Nephites as a whole and/or throughout their history were "skilled metallurgists." Do you?

Only if you, you know, actually read the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 5:15

15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.



Jarom 1:8

8 And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war—yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war.


Ether 7:9

9 Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of steel for those whom he had drawn away with him; and after he had armed them with swords he returned to the city Nehor, and gave battle unto his brother Corihor, by which means he obtained the kingdom and restored it unto his father Kib.



Mosiah 11:8

8 And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;


Mosiah 11:3

3 And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver, and a fifth part of their ziff, and of their copper, and of their brass and their iron; and a fifth part of their fatlings; and also a fifth part of all their grain.



Alma 11:6
6 A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver.


3 Nephi 24:3
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. (makes no sense if they weren't familiar with these metals)



3 Nephi 27:32

32 But behold, it sorroweth me because of the fourth generation from this generation, for they are led away captive by him even as was the son of perdition; for they will sell me for silver and for gold, and for that which moth doth corrupt and which thieves can break through and steal. And in that day will I visit them, even in turning their works upon their own heads.



Helaman 7:21

21 But behold, it is to get gain, to be praised of men, yea, and that ye might get gold and silver. And ye have set your hearts upon the riches and the vain things of this world, for the which ye do murder, and plunder, and steal, and bear false witness against your neighbor, and do all manner of iniquity.



3 Nephi 6:2

2 And it came to pass that they had not eaten up all their provisions; therefore they did take with them all that they had not devoured, of all their grain of every kind, and their gold, and their silver, and all their precious things, and they did return to their own lands and their possessions, both on the north and on the south, both on the land northward and on the land southward.



Alma 1:29

29 And now, because of the steadiness of the church they began to be exceedingly rich, having abundance of all things whatsoever they stood in need—an abundance of flocks and herds, and fatlings of every kind, and also abundance of grain, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things, and abundance of silk and fine-twined linen, and all manner of good homely cloth.



Helaman 12:2

2 Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity.


Helaman 6:9

9 And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north.



4 Nephi 1:46

46 And it came to pass that the robbers of Gadianton did spread over all the face of the land; and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus. And gold and silver did they lay up in store in abundance, and did traffic in all manner of traffic.

[_Daniel Peterson]

2 Nephi 5:15

Very early. First generation. Small group.

This goes very little distance to address my question about whether the Nephites generally, throughout their history, were skilled metallurgists.

Jarom 1:8

Again, quite early. And no mention of a general Nephite expertise in metallurgy.

Ether 7:9

Pre-Nephite, and nothing to do with the Nephites.

Mosiah 11:8

No evidence that Nephites generally were expert metallurgists, nor that they made metallic swords. Jewelry is not weaponry, and, as we know from the accounts of the conquest, wooden swords were extraordinarily effective.

Mosiah 11:3

No evidence for "skilled metallurgy" at all, nor for metallic weapons.

Alma 11:6

Weights of metal. Not even said to be minted coins.
6 A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver.

3 Nephi 24:3

A quotation from Isaiah -- pre-Nephite and Old World.

3 Nephi 27:32

No real evidence for general Nephite metallurgical skill, nor for metallic Nephite weapons.

Helaman 7:21

No real evidence for general Nephite metallurgical skill, nor for metallic Nephite weapons.

3 Nephi 6:2

No real evidence for general Nephite metallurgical skill, nor for metallic Nephite weapons.

Alma 1:29

No real evidence for general Nephite metallurgical skill, nor for metallic Nephite weapons.

Helaman 12:2

No real evidence for general Nephite metallurgical skill, nor for metallic Nephite weapons.

Helaman 6:9

No real evidence for general Nephite metallurgical skill, nor for metallic Nephite weapons.

4 Nephi 1:46

No real evidence for general Nephite metallurgical skill, nor for metallic Nephite weapons.

Metallurgy tended, in ancient times, to be a restricted guild craft, passed from father to son -- and, hence, easily lost. Moreover, the ability to make trinkets or decorations with metal is not the same thing as the ability, or willingness, to make weapons of metal (especially when perfectly adequate alternatives are readily available and well known).

Did you notice, by the way, that, of your fourteen quotations, only two refer to the period after the disruptions that accompanied the coming of Christ? And that one of those seems to be a more or less metaphorical prophecy?

[_Mortal Man]

I mean why would 2/3 of the plates be sealed as they would never be translated?

For the sole purpose of fulfilling Isaiah 29:11-12.

In reality, it is unlikely that any of the plates were actually sealed (assuming they existed). The Eight Witnesses, despite their 'hefting' and handling with their hands say nothing about any of the leaves being sealed. Neither do the Three Witnesses say anything about a sealed portion. Neither did Emma, in thumbing the edge of the plates and listening to their "metallic sound when the edges were moved," seem to notice any pages stuck together.

Remember, the witnesses were clamoring for the privilege of fulfilling Isaiah's prophecy (see note [13]) as copied by Nephi from the Brass Plates.

[Guest]

No evidence that Nephites generally were expert metallurgists, nor that they made metallic swords. Jewelry is not weaponry, and, as we know from the accounts of the conquest, wooden swords were extraordinarily effective.

Conquest refers to the Spanish conquest of South & Central America, right?

No--wooden weapons and rattan armor proved extremely ineffective against the steel armor of the conquistadors. In every engagement between conquistadors, Aztecs, and Incas the deciding factor was the presence of armored warriors atop similarly armored horses. The conquistadors also possessed small numbers of primitive firearms and crossbows but their impact in combat has been greatly exaggerated.

In military terms, steel is a force multiplier. The efficacy of steel arms and armor is such that I must reject the assumption that a warlike people like the Nephites simply lost this technology, or that they failed to re-invent it when the need arose.

[_Mortal Man]

No real evidence for general Nephite metallurgical skill, nor for metallic Nephite weapons.

Metallurgy tended, in ancient times, to be a restricted guild craft, passed from father to son -- and, hence, easily lost. Moreover, the ability to make trinkets or decorations with metal is not the same thing as the ability, or willingness, to make weapons of metal (especially when perfectly adequate alternatives are readily available and well known).

1 Nephi 4:9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

2 Nephi 5:14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords...

Jacob 1:10 The people having loved Nephi exceedingly, he having been a great protector for them, having wielded the sword of Laban in their defence...

Words of Mormon 1:13 And it came to pass also that the armies of the Lamanites came down out of the land of Nephi, to battle against his people. But behold, king Benjamin gathered together his armies, and he did stand against them; and he did fight with the strength of his own arm, with the sword of Laban.