All creeds an abomination?

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_bcspace
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Re: All creeds an abomination?

Post by _bcspace »

Then wouldn't you be better off allowing any one who wants to be baptized their 'chance' and letting God figure out the rest?


There are indeed some who take that view. But that would be contrary to the scriptures; not the least of which is:

1 And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.

2 Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.

3 And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
Moroni 6:1-3
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_Wisdom Seeker
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Re: All creeds an abomination?

Post by _Wisdom Seeker »

bcspace wrote:
At least these people got the chance to accept the gospel while here on earth so they can be condemned for the rest of eternity for rejecting it later on. What a great system that clearly shows a benevolent loving God who cares for all of his children.


Indeed. But who can say what a chance entails? We know the gospel is preached in the afterlife so everyone can be judged by the same standards (1 Peter 4:6) so imperfection here will be amended there. These experiences and failures make us grow and become refined even such that Malachi 3:17. That is what the Atonement is for so I would not give up on the ninety and nine that you worry about. But you have to also consider Matthew 7:14 and Matthew 13:18-23.


Sounds to me like a person is much better off not hearing anything about the gospel in their life. Perhaps only a 5% success rate to Celestial glory compared to an after death, lay all the cards on the table decision.
_bcspace
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Re: All creeds an abomination?

Post by _bcspace »

Sounds to me like a person is much better off not hearing anything about the gospel in their life. Perhaps only a 5% success rate to Celestial glory compared to an after death, lay all the cards on the table decision.


Not necessarily going to work either:

Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
Alma 34:34
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_Drifting
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Re: All creeds an abomination?

Post by _Drifting »

bcspace wrote:
Sounds to me like a person is much better off not hearing anything about the gospel in their life. Perhaps only a 5% success rate to Celestial glory compared to an after death, lay all the cards on the table decision.


Not necessarily going to work either:

Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
Alma 34:34


So, why do we do baptisms for the dead?
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_bcspace
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Re: All creeds an abomination?

Post by _bcspace »

So, why do we do baptisms for the dead?


Because, as teh scriptures say, water baptism is required to enter into the kingdom of heaven. The overarching principle is that the gospel is preached to them so we can all be judged by the same standard (1 Peter 4:6); for example, whether or not they got baptised as is the commandment.
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_Quasimodo
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Re: All creeds an abomination?

Post by _Quasimodo »

bcspace wrote:
So, why do we do baptisms for the dead?


Because, as the scriptures say, water baptism is required to enter into the kingdom of heaven. The overarching principle is that the gospel is preached to them so we can all be judged by the same standard (1 Peter 4:6); for example, whether or not they got baptised as is the commandment.


I'm curious why God, capable of any action, would not just waver the baptism rule for all those that died without having the option. It seems a little officious to me that God would hold to such an unfair rule.

I wonder who is speaking for God here?
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Re: All creeds an abomination?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Quasimodo wrote:
I'm curious why God, capable of any action, would not just waver the baptism rule for all those that died without having the option. It seems a little officious to me that God would hold to such an unfair rule.

I wonder who is speaking for God here?


Or just have them be baptized for themselves. What prevents a spirit, which has substance, from being baptized?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
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Re: All creeds an abomination?

Post by _Drifting »

bcspace wrote:
So, why do we do baptisms for the dead?


Because, as the scriptures say, water baptism is required to enter into the kingdom of heaven. The overarching principle is that the gospel is preached to them so we can all be judged by the same standard (1 Peter 4:6); for example, whether or not they got baptised as is the commandment.


But baptism for the dead negates the Alma scripture you quoted.
In essence, you absolutely are better off hearing the gospel in the ext life, having someone pay 10% of their gross for the privilege of doing your baptism for you and you can decide to accept or not from a position of much greater knowledge. No downside.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_bcspace
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Re: All creeds an abomination?

Post by _bcspace »

I'm curious why God, capable of any action, would not just waver the baptism rule for all those that died without having the option. It seems a little officious to me that God would hold to such an unfair rule.


How is it unresonable to judge everyone by the same standard and allow everyone such an opportunity?

I wonder who is speaking for God here?


The scriptures.

But baptism for the dead negates the Alma scripture you quoted.
In essence, you absolutely are better off hearing the gospel in the ext life, having someone pay 10% of their gross for the privilege of doing your baptism for you and you can decide to accept or not from a position of much greater knowledge. No downside.


Doesn't seem to be the case according to D&C 76. Those who had opportunity in this life and refused it are relegated to the Terrestial at most (vs. 74). Those who don't receive it at all inherit the Telestial at most and likely spend the time between death and the judgement in hell (vs. 84, 99-101). In other words, neither case can result in eternal life. So Alma is fulfilled and the notion that one can just avoid it in this life when it comes goes out the window.
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Re: All creeds an abomination?

Post by _Wisdom Seeker »

REMOVED, don't want to start a fight.
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