Are you tight or loose - translatory speaking?

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_Themis
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Re: Are you tight or loose - translatory speaking?

Post by _Themis »

J Green wrote:Drifting,

I'm curious as to why you assume that a 'tight' translation implies that the words are straight from God and not chosen by Joseph. I'd also love to hear Ben's thoughts on this vis-à-vis Joseph as reader.

Regards


Simply because tight and loose translations is an apologetic invention. Tight is defined as coming from God word for word, and loose is defined as Joseph being given the story but putting it into his own words.
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_Themis
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Re: Are you tight or loose - translatory speaking?

Post by _Themis »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:Simplifying a bit, any time you have a text as a communicative act, you have an author who is writing to an idealized audience. The audience is specific (or at least can be identified by specific features). If Joseph Smith was the intended audience, then he functions as a large part of what determines the language (i.e. the words that are used). Whether or not Joseph is identical with the idealized audience, he probably at least resembles it to some extent (probably more than I do, or anyone else reading this forum).

Ben M.


If we go by the descriptions given from those who were there(even though they didn't have their face in the hat), Joseph was receiving it word for word. This makes sense if we assume God is smarter then your average apologist. :)
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_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Are you tight or loose - translatory speaking?

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Themis writes:
Simply because tight and loose translations is an apologetic invention. Tight is defined as coming from God word for word, and loose is defined as Joseph being given the story but putting it into his own words.
This is to some extent very true. I generally prefer Goffman's descriptions, where he breaks the process into roles. One good example (particularly as we are involved in a political period) would be a President's speech. So, Obama has his speech writer put together something - and then at the last minute he can't make the engagement and sends Hillary Clinton off to give the speech for him. In this model there are three roles.

Erving Goffman breaks down speech acts into three useful roles (although clearly we could add many more, its just usually not useful to do so). The three roles are that of animator - the person who is actually speaking or writing. The second role is that of author - the person who actually composes what is said or written. The third role is the principal - the person whose ideas and beliefs are being expressed and who is the authority behind the text.

Usually, all of these roles are played by the same person. But this isn't always the case. In my example above, the President is the principal, while his speechwriter is the author, and Clinton would then become the animator. Three separate roles played by three distinct individuals.

To this list we can add a reader as a role. And so while we can talk about tight or loose, the real question isn't that, its about what role we see Joseph playing. Very narrowly (from my perspective as a believer of course), the question is, is Joseph merely a reader, or is he an author. And so that is why I speak of Joseph as a reader of the text. We use the tight and loose language in part because it makes it easy to speak of Joseph contributing without carrying the overtones of being an author (even in the very narrow sense that Goffman uses).
If we go by the descriptions given from those who were there(even though they didn't have their face in the hat), Joseph was receiving it word for word. This makes sense if we assume God is smarter then your average apologist. :)
Even so, God doesn't change the nature of texts in doing this, or the need to read and interpret. There still must be an idealized audience, and the degree to which we are generally capable of understanding the intentions of the principal of a text (to use another of Goffman's roles) is the degree to which we resemble that idealized audience.

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Re: Are you tight or loose - translatory speaking?

Post by _Themis »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:Very narrowly (from my perspective as a believer of course), the question is, is Joseph merely a reader, or is he an author.


Another words tight or loose translation.

Even so, God doesn't change the nature of texts in doing this, or the need to read and interpret.


Like I said, if we go by what others described as the process, then Joseph was just the reader, and God the author. This makes sense because Joseph had no knowledge of this claimed language. It also makes better sense for God to translate it by giving him word for word so as to limit errors. This of course does not help the Book of Mormon being an ancient text.
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_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Are you tight or loose - translatory speaking?

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Themis writes:
Like I said, if we go by what others described as the process, then Joseph was just the reader, and God the author. This makes sense because Joseph had no knowledge of this claimed language. It also makes better sense for God to translate it by giving him word for word so as to limit errors. This of course does not help the Book of Mormon being an ancient text.
Right, but God is the author only in a very narrow sense too. Whatever the divine involvement, if Joseph is a read, the Divine is simply conveying the original text into language that can be understood. Nephi, Jacob, Mormon, Moroni, et al., - they are the principals. What I don't want to get lost in all of this is that we still have an original author who is not God, whose ideas are potentially wrong, who is capable of making mistakes as he writes, and so on.

Edit: Clearly the Book of Mormon can't be spoken of as an ancient text in any normative sense. The Book of Mormon is a modern production. It uses (for example) language that is relatively modern. The question ultimately in that regard is whether it is based on an ancient source, or not.

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_Themis
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Re: Are you tight or loose - translatory speaking?

Post by _Themis »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:Right, but God is the author only in a very narrow sense too. Whatever the divine involvement, if Joseph is a read, the Divine is simply conveying the original text into language that can be understood.


If we are going to say whatever the divine involvement, then assuming God would not make changes is just that, an assumption. Even if we make this assumption, I don't think it helps much in making the case of the Book of Mormon having an ancient source. An example would be the horse/tapir argument. If Nephi and company did call the tapir a horse, then it makes sense that God would not use horse in giving Joseph Smith the translation, since the original author did not mean horse as Joseph's society defined it.

Not to mention that the Book of Mormon uses some names for animals we have no idea what they are.

Edit: Clearly the Book of Mormon can't be spoken of as an ancient text in any normative sense. The Book of Mormon is a modern production. It uses (for example) language that is relatively modern. The question ultimately in that regard is whether it is based on an ancient source, or not.


With Joseph as reader, then it is supposed to be a translation of an ancient text.
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_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Are you tight or loose - translatory speaking?

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Themis writes:
An example would be the horse/tapir argument. If Nephi and company did call the tapir a horse, then it makes sense that God would not use horse in giving Joseph Smith the translation, since the original author did not mean horse as Joseph's society defined it.
I think this argument doesn't work at all, and it fundamentally misunderstands the problems of translation and language. This is the whole issue behind semantic expansion (or loan shifting). The example I like to use is the one that Umberto Eco uses in his book Kant and the Platypus. He starts this way:
Often, when faced with an unknown phenomenon, we react by approximation:
we seek that scrap of content, already present in our encyclopedia, which for better or worse seems to account for the new fact. A classic example of this process is to be found in Marco Polo, who saw what we now realize were rhinoceroses on Java. Although he had never seen such animals before, by analogy with other known animals he was able to distinguish the body, the four feet, and the horn. Since his culture provided him with the notion of a unicorn—a quadruped with a horn on its forehead, to be precise—he designated those animals as unicorns.

So, he sees something he hasn't seen before, and fits it into his language using a familiar term. Eco continues:
Then, as he was an honest and meticulous chronicler, he hastened to tell us that these unicorns were rather strange—not very good examples of the species, we might say—given that they were not white and slender but had "the hair of the buffalo" and feet "like the feet of an elephant."

So, this is what we mean by semantic extension. Eco is very much (in his book) interested in talking about why Polo does what he does. But, what we end up with isn't simply a replacement. You couldn't (as you suggest) that we should, when we translate Polo use the word Rhinoceros where Polo uses the word Unicorn. But, this makes part of the text incomprehensible. Polo hasn't replaced one concept with the other, he has added a second concept to the semantic meaning of the word. If he had later seen a slender legged, white, equine looking quadruped with a horn in the middle of its forehead, he would have also recognized this as a unicorn. So, if we see semantic extension going on, then Nephi has used the word horse to refer to whatever he is looking at, he has intended to use that word, and when he uses that word, he also can refer back to all of the other horses of the sort he was previously familiar with. And so its not (at least linguistically) such a simple task as you suggest, and if Nephi does this, a translator restricts Nephi's meaning in a way that conflicts with Nephi's intentions. Certainly, when Nephi quotes Isaiah and presumably uses the same word, he means it in exactly the same way that our culture would generally understand it.

My point of this is that under what we would presume to be similar circumstances, we find identifiable, non-fictional parallel events happening in other texts - parallel to what we suppose might have happened here. As to why it occurred (which is part of what preoccupies Eco in his book), we could come up with a number of potentially rational reasons depending on our candidates for the semantic extension.

But, because of this, I don't accept your rationale. Perhaps if you would do a better job of explaining what sort of translation you would expect, how it would work, and so on, we might have some room to discuss this. But I recognize this is a problematic issue from your perspective that there was in fact no translation occurring.
Not to mention that the Book of Mormon uses some names for animals we have no idea what they are.
Right, but they occur in a specific context where we have Moroni providing us with a translation (which potentially he did not make) of a much older text, and he may not have had any idea what they were. Ether is a challenging text because of what it tells us about its origins (unlike much of the rest of the Book of Mormon), and so it carries additional problems in the context of a discussion like this.
With Joseph as reader, then it is supposed to be a translation of an ancient text.
Sure, which is what I keep saying. But it isn't an ancient text, is it. It's language is at home in early 19th century America. It is in English. These are not features of an ancient text. The Bible, for example, contains anachronistic language. But that doesn't mean that there isn't an ancient text as its source. Nor does it make the KJV of the Bible an ancient text (beyond the date of its creation). With the Book of Mormon, this is a distinction that often gets missed. In biblical studies you would be hard pressed to find any scholar who mistakes the KJV for an ancient text.

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Re: Are you tight or loose - translatory speaking?

Post by _Drifting »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:Drifting writes:
Ben, do you think these verses were translated in tight fashion?
Yes. I think you are confusing a couple of issues here. The plates we are told, were on metal, and quite difficult to make. At what point, while creating a sheet of writing does the inscriptionist decide to try and correct an error or to simply throw the sheet back into the fire and start over? There are others I could point to that you have missed like Alma 32:16 ("or rather, in other words")

The Gold Plates were (at least allegedly) a text, just like any other text. The Book of Mormon is also merely a text. If the Book of Mormon is a translation of the Gold Plates in any literal sort of way, then if Mormon/Moroni corrected himself (rather than starting a page over), I would expect to see those corrections in the Book of Mormon - and in this light, I don't think that such statements really side with either a tight or a loose translation model (although perhaps it favors a tighter control, since perhaps Joseph would have made corrections to the text?)

Ben M.


This would be a perfectly reasonable apologetic, had the plates been used by Joseph in the translation process.....
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_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Are you tight or loose - translatory speaking?

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

drifting writes:
This would be a perfectly reasonable apologetic, had the plates been used by Joseph in the translation process.....
Which doesn't help further the discussion. In what way doesn't it apply with the face in the hat? Is it a translation? Are potentially two texts involved? At what point does it stop working?

Ben M.
_J Green
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Re: Are you tight or loose - translatory speaking?

Post by _J Green »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:Simplifying a bit, any time you have a text as a communicative act, you have an author who is writing to an idealized audience. The audience is specific (or at least can be identified by specific features). If Joseph Smith was the intended audience, then he functions as a large part of what determines the language (i.e. the words that are used). Whether or not Joseph is identical with the idealized audience, he probably at least resembles it to some extent (probably more than I do, or anyone else reading this forum).

Nice thought. I'm interested in the 3 + 1 roles you mention as part of the communicative act as well. Since I believe that Joseph played a larger role in the translation process in terms of word choice -- from examples of tight translations to examples of loose translations and everything in between -- I'd love to explore how that perspective informs our view of Joseph's influence on the other roles aside from just reader.
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