Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

[_Runtu]

And how about barley? Oh wait, I guess they did find barley. What I find interesting is for years, critics of the Book of Mormon would say that there was no evidence of barley in pre-columbian America, and then we find it. Do they instantly concede that the Book of Mormon was correct and they were wrong? No.

I've never criticized the presence of barley.

The fact is, there is a much easier way to prove the Book of Mormon is a fraud. Pray to God and if you don't feel it is true, then it is a hoax. Seems like a stupid way to perpetrate a fraud to me. Or let's get to the "classic" ex-mormon excuse: I felt it was true, but I was deluding myself. Well DUH. You seriously just stopped at feelings? You went to all the trouble of being baptised and wearing funny looking underwear and you never bothered to actually speak with God yourself? There is no point of believing in Mormonism or any religion for that matter if God isn't real and if you can't be bothered to go there, you should just remain an atheist and go on your merry way.

So, I'm supposed to ignore the facts and pray? What do you say to those of us who find that the facts and prayer return the same answer?

[_Buffalo]

And how about barley? Oh wait, I guess they did find barley. What I find interesting is for years, critics of the Book of Mormon would say that there was no evidence of barley in pre-columbian America, and then we find it. Do they instantly concede that the Book of Mormon was correct and they were wrong? No.

The fact is, there is a much easier way to prove the Book of Mormon is a fraud. Pray to God and if you don't feel it is true, then it is a hoax. Seems like a stupid way to perpetrate a fraud to me. Or let's get to the "classic" ex-mormon excuse: I felt it was true, but I was deluding myself. Well DUH. You seriously just stopped at feelings? You went to all the trouble of being baptised and wearing funny looking underwear and you never bothered to actually speak with God yourself? There is no point of believing in Mormonism or any religion for that matter if God isn't real and if you can't be bothered to go there, you should just remain an atheist and go on your merry way.

That methodology is untrustworthy.

http://dayofpraise.blogspot.com/2008/05 ... -love.html

"In the FLDS faith, I found a sweet, humble, love-your-neighbor lifestyle, with no force, with free choice to be who you want to be, where you want to be, and how you want to be. These people are Builders, Workers, Thinkers, Doers—hardly the oppressed or deprived people we’ve been accused of being.

I had to know for myself if this was the Lord’s Church. In the first epistle of James, chapter one, verse five, the Apostle says, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” I believed, I asked, and I received an assurance that this was where I should be in the sight of God.

The only trustworthy methodology is an empirical approach.

[_Runtu]

That methodology is untrustworthy.

I'm sure the Lafferty brothers would disagree with you.

[_Tobin]

I've never criticized the presence of barley.

Oh I know. It is STILL sometimes brought up though and I just relish the chance to blow that up when it is.

So, I'm supposed to ignore the facts and pray? What do you say to those of us who find that the facts and prayer return the same answer?

Which facts are your referring to? I see no "facts" that disprove the existence of God or disables God's ability to speak with us? The point of the Book of Mormon (and Mormonism in general) is to get one to speak with God. If you are unwilling to do that, I really see no point in reading or studying the book in the first place. Without a real God, Mormonism is a clear hoax and completely pointless.

[_Runtu]

Which facts are your referring to? I see no "facts" that disprove the existence of God or disables God's ability to speak with us?

I don't disbelieve in God. What makes you think I am an atheist?

The point of the Book of Mormon (and Mormonism in general) is to get one to speak with God. If you are unwilling to do that, I really see no point in reading or studying the book in the first place. Without a real God, Mormonism is a clear hoax and completely pointless.

I did all of those things and got a clear answer both from study and prayer. I suppose you're going to tell me it was Satan who answered my prayer.

[_Tobin]

The only trustworthy methodology is an empirical approach.

That statment is a non sequitur. Why are you even interested in religion without a belief in God in the first place? What empirical approach are you going to employ to prove or disprove there is a God? Are you going to command God to appear and be subjected to a series of empirical tests to make sure he's really God? Do you even comprehend how obtuse that is?

[_Buffalo]

The only trustworthy methodology is an empirical approach.

That statment is a non sequitur. Why are you even interested in religion without a belief in God in the first place? What empirical approach are you going to employ to prove or disprove there is a God? Are you going to command God to appear and be subjected to a series of empirical tests to make sure he's really God? Do you even comprehend how obtuse that is?

It's quite easy to disprove any specific god (while impossible to disprove the idea of gods in general). Even easier to disprove the concrete claims of Mormonism regarding things like the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, death before 4000 BC, etc.

[_Themis]

And how about barley? Oh wait, I guess they did find barley. What I find interesting is for years, critics of the Book of Mormon would say that there was no evidence of barley in pre-columbian America, and then we find it. Do they instantly concede that the Book of Mormon was correct and they were wrong? No.

Could you provide more detail? I know it is not as simple as you are putting it.

The fact is, there is a much easier way to prove the Book of Mormon is a fraud. Pray to God and if you don't feel it is true, then it is a hoax.

Most people missionaries teach come to this conclusion. :)

Seems like a stupid way to perpetrate a fraud to me.

Quite the opposite. Many religious leaders learn and use emotions/feelings to gain adherents.

Or let's get to the "classic" ex-mormon excuse: I felt it was true, but I was deluding myself.

We all interpret our experiences. At one time we interpreted it as the HG. Now we don't, although most of us needed other evidences to change beliefs regardless LDS truth claims.

Well DUH. You seriously just stopped at feelings? You went to all the trouble of being baptised and wearing funny looking underwear and you never bothered to actually speak with God yourself?

It's what most people have done in most religions. Although most have asked God. The LDS teachs that one will not get their answer from seeing or hearing God directly, but through the HG. I seriously doubt you were ever very active in the LDS church and would not know this stuff.

There is no point of believing in Mormonism or any religion for that matter if God isn't real and if you can't be bothered to go there, you should just remain an atheist and go on your merry way.

You do not understand. People believe certain things usually not becuase they are true, but because they believe they are true. As such, people can change their minds for various reasons. Your criticisms really are aimed not just at former believers, but at a minimum the vast majority of believing members who have never had God or angels talk to them. I assume then you believe that God has talked to you?

[_Tobin]

I did all of those things and got a clear answer both from study and prayer. I suppose you're going to tell me it was Satan who answered my prayer.

Actually, I'm going to give you yoda's answer: Do or do not. There is no try. The fact is, you've never spoken with God at all. If you had, you would have answered differently.

[_Runtu]

Actually, I'm going to give you yoda's answer: Do or do not. There is no try. The fact is, you've never spoken with God at all. If you had, you would have answered differently.

I kind of figured you'd say something like that.