Swedenborg...

[_MCB]

Those examples are rather concrete. Ever hear of glossolalia?

[_Themis]

He just put together what he liked.

Not even good speculation and hardly even good imagination. you have no evidence to support this claim.

I have lots like the Book of Mormon , Book of Abraham, etc, but that is not the topic of this thread.

[_Equality]

... challenge: what ideas did Joseph Smith "restore" that he could not have picked up from contemporary sources?

- curelom
- cumom
- neas
- sheum
- ziff
- telestial

Is this enough?

Ok, I'll concede those and give him "Zelph" and "Mahonri Moriancumer" as well. I stand corrected. Anything in the realm of ideas? Theology, Soteriology? Doctrinal principles?

[_MCB]

New thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22600

[_Franktalk]

Indeed that is the real issue, and notice how the mopes don't address it? They never do. They can't point to a single doctrine that Joseph Smith "restored" that was unique--everything he came up with was in the cultural milieu in which he emerged. Some of Swedenborg's ideas are also found in Thomas Dick's The Philosophy of a Future State, and we know Smith had a copy of that.

Subby, Frank,
Care to comment?

Actually there is nothing new at all. A restored Gospel is restored not new. Many things were lost and now are being revealed again. So what is your point? Anything that was going to be written already existed in heaven before the world was made.

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

You can either believe scripture or not. But from a scriptural point of view everything Joseph Smith wrote was written long before any of the references you can find.

[Hawkeye]

The suggestion that Swedenborgianism was not a significant influence in antebellum American thought (let alone, the thought of those actively involved in esoteric practices) is simply mistaken. To those who may want to think otherwise, here are just a few names to consider:
Johnny Appleseed
The James Family
Sampson Reed
Samuel Woodworth
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Oh yeah... I should probably add one more:

John Hyde.

[_Mike Reed]

... challenge: what ideas did Joseph Smith "restore" that he could not have picked up from contemporary sources?

...
- telestial

Is this enough?

Bad news. I've found an esoteric source that strikes this one from the list. Stay tuned.

[_Tobin]

The suggestion that Swedenborgianism was not a significant influence in antebellum American thought (let alone, the thought of those actively involved in esoteric practices) is simply not true. To those who may want to think otherwise, here are just a few names to consider:
Johnny Appleseed
The James Family
Sampson Reed
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Oh yeah... I should probably add one more:

John Hyde.

I think it is a stretch to state that Swedenborgianism (wow - really?) is at the heart of Mormonism or had that much of a direct influence on Joseph Smith. I think subgenius's comment is probably the most appopriate. Joseph Smith may have been aware of Swedenborg due to a supposed comment he may have made on Swedenborg attributed to him.

[_Mike Reed]

(wow - really?)

Um... yep. Really.

I think it is a stretch to state that Swedenborgianism is at the heart of Mormonism or had that much of a direct influence on Joseph Smith.

Reread what I said. No mention of heart. My commentary had to do with the availability of Swedenborgian thought in antebellum American. And did you notice that I listed John Hyde? Are you aware of who this guy is, and what connection he might have with Mormonism and Swedenborgianism? How about Samuel Woodworth, a proponent of the Christianization movement in Freemasonry. Have you heard of this movement, and of its connection to Mormonism may have been? How abut the James Family? You know the famous wealthy family that invested in the construction that the canal that the Smith family worked on? What did they have to do with Swedenborg? How about Johnny Appleseed and the places he traveled as he passed out Swedenborgian literature? Do you know where he went? How about Sampson Reed's presence in New York, and the response that certain intellectuals (like Emerson) had for this poet? How about Emerson's understandings of the doings of Joseph Smith? What about the theosophists? What interests did they have with Swedenborg? And what are theosophists anyway? Their influence was far removed from the Smiths, right? And what about books donated in the Nauvoo library?

I think subgenius's comment is probably the most appopriate. Joseph Smith may have been aware of Swedenborg due to a supposed comment he may have made on Swedenborg attributed to him.

You think so? And you base this on what research?

[_Tobin]

(wow - really?)

Um... yep. Really.

I think it is a stretch to state that Swedenborgianism is at the heart of Mormonism or had that much of a direct influence on Joseph Smith.

Reread what I said. No mention of heart. My commentary had to do with the availability of Swedenborgian thought in antebellum American. And did you notice that I listed John Hyde? Are you aware of who this guy is, and what connection he might have with Mormonism and Swedenborgianism? How about Samuel Woodworth, a proponent of the Christianization movement in Freemasonry. Have you heard of this movement, and of its connection to Mormonism may have been? How abut the James Family? You know the famous and wealthy family that invested in the construction that the canal that the Smith family worked on? What did they have to do with Swedenborg? How about Johnny Appleseed and the places thattraveled as he passed out Swedenborgian literature? Do you know where he went? How about Sampson Reed's presence in New York, and the response that certain intellectuals (like Emerson) had for this poet? How about Emerson's understandings of the doings of Joseph Smith? What about the theosophists? What interests did they have with Swedenborg? And what the hell are theosophists anyway? Their influence was far removed from the Smiths, right? And what about books donated in the Nauvoo library?

This is the problem I have with these crack-pot theories. No association to this is made during the time of Joseph Smith. Enemies of Mormonism did not say, "Oh, that is just some more Swedenborgianism. You, Joseph Smith, are just parroting what Swedenborg said." You might as well create a scenario of how the Latin alphabet or that great English literature directly influenced Joseph Smith and that Shakespeare is actually the chief author of Mormonism. All I see with your questions is a transparent attempt to create the most tenuous of connections to Joseph Smith. This is simply a game of six degrees of Kevin Bacon where you have substituted 'Kevin Bacon' with 'Emanuel Swedenborg' and that is all it is.

I think subgenius's comment is probably the most appopriate. Joseph Smith may have been aware of Swedenborg due to a supposed comment he may have made on Swedenborg attributed to him.

You think so? And you base this on what research?

What level of research do you demand? I think we have one brief comment supposedly made by Joseph Smith about Swedenborg and that is it.