Why aren't Book of Mormon populations Jewish?

[_Themis]

And the Nephites/Lamanites?

This is a different subject. If you wish to open a thread on Lehi and his ancestry you can. The problem is that there is not enough information to bridge to any science (DNA) on an ancestry we don't know.

Actually there is.

[_Drifting]

If I recall correctly the groups described as going and setting up in the Americas were Jewish when they set of but weren't Jewish when they got there.
(based on the Book of Mormon text).

What happened?

Frank. Here is the OP.
In what way is my enquiry about Nephite and Lamanite populations 'a different subject' that requires a different thread?

[_Themis]

Hi Themis:

You do realize that the flood was BEFORE Noah, the Tower of Babel was AFTER Noah, the Jaredites were at the time of the Tower of Babel, and that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were AFTER the Tower of Babel??

The flood is supposed to have occurred during the time of Noah, not before.

If we were to apply your logic, we would need to be able to figure out where the Mayans came from; and also, what exactly destroyed them in order to use the same set of standards you want to apply to anyone who ever lived and/or was destroyed on the American continents, regardless of whether or not they are mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Where did the Mayans come from; when did they get here, where did they go; what does their DNA (has any DNA been found?) tell us?

The Mayan civilization stated before Lehi's group, and lasted long after the Book of Mormon time period. In fact they did not die off. Yes we do know what there DNA looks like, not to mention all other groups around the Americas. A lot of research has been going on, and continuing today. I suggest you go to this thread and ask Simon for good sources to learn more about it.

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22894

You should also be aware that there are many peoples of many nations who have been adopted into the Jewish faith and are considered Jewish by the Jews whose lineage IS Jewish regardless of non-Jewish lineage of the adoptee because the adoptee adopts Jewish belief and traditions. In other words, there are Jews whose bloodlines are not of Jewish origin; there are Jews who started out as Gentiles. Think about it: when a gentile of ANY nation converts to Christ, they are then considered a Christian regardless of their lineage or their bloodline. Same thing with the Jews. A convert's DNA does not change, even though their belief system does. When a Jew converts to Christianity, their DNA does not change either; their nationality remains the same even though their belief system has changed.

Again, there is a lot of information out there if you are really interested to learn. This is why some Jewish groups are known to be converts, or another African group claiming to be Jewish is found to have some of there DNA. Interesting that we don't find this anywhere in the Americas.

The OP asked why aren't Book of Mormon populations Jewish.

Now you're getting it.

It was not looking for evidence of human populations.

Aww, now you're missing it. I think he was asking for just that, whether with DNA or cultural evidence. He can chime in on it.

by the way, there IS physical evidence which has been found in ancient mounds and in ancient land formations which indicate Jewish traditions were known in the ancient Americas. Also, some percentages of ancient DNA evidence that has been found in both North AND South America matches some percentages of DNA found in Israel. This is what one would expect to find given the knowledge that among today's Jews there is such a mix of DNA found in ancient and current Israel itself, which mixing has been going on since ancient times as recorded in the Bible.

Don't be fooled by the Meldrum BS. Even most apologists don't buy it. Again I would ask Simon, who is the most knowledgeable around here for more information if you are really interested in what we really know about it.

If anyone is stuck on needing physical evidence, a good DVD to watch is "The Lost Civilizations of North America" by NA Discoveries. Even if you are not hooked on finding physical evidence, it is interesting and informative about presenting ancient history (or pre-history as defined by the American government and scientific community of the 19th century) of North America. In fact, one of the source books used in the presentation is available as a free download from Google called "The Mound Builders".

Again, I hope you might try being more open minded to real science in DNA, etc.

[_Drifting]

Me chiming in.

I don't see any evidence in the Book of Mormon that indicates any of the populations mentioned have any Jewish traits or customs etc. Not least of these would be the Nephites and the Lamanites.

Why not?

It is also interesting that no remnant of any Hebrew based Book of Mormon population remains within the US today.

Again, why not?

[_hatersinmyward]

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=18403.0

http://bcadams.posterous.com/cherokee-d ... ael-and-co

http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/batcrk.html

[_jo1952]

Me chiming in.

I don't see any evidence in the Book of Mormon that indicates any of the populations mentioned have any Jewish traits or customs etc. Not least of these would be the Nephites and the Lamanites.

Why not?

It is also interesting that no remnant of any Hebrew based Book of Mormon population remains within the US today.

Again, why not?

Listen to the DVD I pointed to. You will see that there IS DNA not only in some of the Indian tribes today which show Jewish DNA, but also that same Jewish DNA in the bones found within the mounds (which bones have been dated back to circa 400 AD). If you would take the time to look at the books written in the 1800's, you would see that there is a lot of evidence of an advanced civilization in North America. They smelted iron and copper - plenty of pieces available to see if you visit the museums and ask to see them. Also, only 200 years ago, religious leaders of the Jews and various Protestant denominations commonly believed that the American Indians were of Jewish descent. The mounds and fields only 200 years ago were filled with physical evidences indicating Hebraic influence: carvings of minoras, carvings of oil lamps, carvings of a written language described by experts of the day as being a form of revised Egyptian, arrow heads made of iron, etc. by the way, the books being referred to in the 1800's (you can get a list of the books by listening to the DVD) were not written in defense of or against Joseph Smith. They did not even have him in mind. They were written independently by peoples recording what they saw in their own private searches which they were personally involved in before the mounds disappeared. Open your eyes and see.

If you are truly interested in perpetuating the scientific methods of research, then you will include those books in your studies. If you are afraid of what you will find there, then don't bother. If anything, any of us who want to learn the real history of own country should be up in arms about why so much has been hidden from us, and why knowledge of these things has not been taught to us. If we want to find the pre-history of our country, we should be fighting to have those records also made easily accessible which were found and which were not destroyed, but put away into the basement and archives of not only the Smithsonian Institute, but also many, many museums.

The idea of Manifest Destiny was so important to the government and the scientific community of the 1800's, though it actually fulfills prophecy in the Book of Mormon, shamefully have hidden many truths from us in order to accomplish their agenda.

Same to Themis.

Love,

jo

[_Themis]

Listen to the DVD I pointed to. You will see that there IS DNA not only in some of the Indian tribes today which show Jewish DNA, but also that same Jewish DNA in the bones found within the mounds (which bones have been dated back to circa 400 AD). If you would take the time to look at the books written in the 1800's, you would see that there is a lot of evidence of an advanced civilization in North America. They smelted iron and copper - plenty of pieces available to see if you visit the museums and ask to see them. Also, only 200 years ago, religious leaders of the Jews and various Protestant denominations commonly believed that the American Indians were of Jewish descent. The mounds and fields only 200 years ago were filled with physical evidences indicating Hebraic influence: carvings of minoras, carvings of oil lamps, carvings of a written language described by experts of the day as being a form of revised Egyptian, arrow heads made of iron, etc. by the way, the books being referred to in the 1800's (you can get a list of the books by listening to the DVD) were not written in defense of or against Joseph Smith. They did not even have him in mind. They were written independently by peoples recording what they saw in their own private searches which they were personally involved in before the mounds disappeared. Open your eyes and see.

If you are truly interested in perpetuating the scientific methods of research, then you will include those books in your studies. If you are afraid of what you will find there, then don't bother. If anything, any of us who want to learn the real history of own country should be up in arms about why so much has been hidden from us, and why knowledge of these things has not been taught to us. If we want to find the pre-history of our country, we should be fighting to have those records also made easily accessible which were found and which were not destroyed, but put away into the basement and archives of not only the Smithsonian Institute, but also many, many museums.

The idea of Manifest Destiny was so important to the government and the scientific community of the 1800's, though it actually fulfills prophecy in the Book of Mormon, shamefully have hidden many truths from us in order to accomplish their agenda.

Same to Themis.

Love,

jo

Perhaps you could provide one or two pieces of evidence you like, and we can go from there.

[_jo1952]

Perhaps you could provide one or two pieces of evidence you like, and we can go from there.

The DVD "The Lost Civilizations of North America"; the downloadable book from Google "The Mound Builders"; the book "Ancient Monuments of the Mississippi Valley" by EG Squier and EH Davis published in 1848 (this one may be difficult to track down; however, it does exist, and is one of the sources of information provided in the DVD); as well as other publications mentioned in the DVD.

As a side note, there is a lost civilization which has in recent years been uncovered with the name of Gobekli Tepe in Turkey. Though I do not not believe the dating methods used to determine the age of this civilization site are accurate, the point is that it remained hidden in plain sight for thousands of years. Similarly, the city of Ninevah remained hidden for thousands of years as well; and was, in fact, considered to by a mythical city by historians and critics of the Bible for 100's of years before its discovery in the 1800's. Just some food for thought for those who think that the absence of physical evidence is somehow proof of non-existence when it is something you do not want to believe.

Love,

jo

[_Themis]

The DVD "The Lost Civilizations of North America"; the downloadable book from Google "The Mound Builders"; the book "Ancient Monuments of the Mississippi Valley" by EG Squier and EH Davis published in 1848 (this one may be difficult to track down; however, it does exist, and is one of the sources of information provided in the DVD); as well as other publications mentioned in the DVD.

As a side note, there is a lost civilization which has in recent years been uncovered with the name of Gobekli Tepe in Turkey. Though I do not not believe the dating methods used to determine the age of this civilization site are accurate, the point is that it remained hidden in plain sight for thousands of years. Similarly, the city of Ninevah remained hidden for thousands of years as well; and was, in fact, considered to by a mythical city by historians and critics of the Bible for 100's of years before its discovery in the 1800's. Just some food for thought for those who think that the absence of physical evidence is somehow proof of non-existence when it is something you do not want to believe.

Love,

jo

Lets keep things simple and provide one piece of evidence you like, and then we can go from there. by the way I did not change beliefs out of any desire to not believe LDS truth claims. I wanted to believe them. Also absence of evidence in some cases is not evidence of absence, while in other cases it is evidence of absence. You might want to look it up to learn why.

[_Tobin]

Lets keep things simple and provide one piece of evidence you like, and then we can go from there. by the way I did not change beliefs out of any desire to not believe LDS truth claims. I wanted to believe them. Also absence of evidence in some cases is not evidence of absence, while in other cases it is evidence of absence. You might want to look it up to learn why.

Why don't you just speak with God about it Themis and let the evidence come in time? IF you were committed to the idea of being a Mormon, that is all it is really all about anyway. It isn't like I'm not aware of what the evidence shows and does not show. It has no impact on my belief in God one way or the other.