UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

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_subgenius
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _subgenius »

Morley wrote:subgenius: You’re referring to the meta-analysis on the NARTH website. NARTH may not be the most objective resource.

because it does not support your preconceived notions on the subject?, duly noted.


Let us take a more sanitized approach that may be more appropriate for your delicate sensibilities.
The American Psychological Association(ApA) writes the following in support for the removing homosexuality from the list of disorders (which occurred in the 70s, an obvious by-product of the "me" generation):
"There is no reliable evidence that homosexual orientation per se impairs psychological functioning, although the social and other circumstances in which lesbians and gay men live, including exposure to widespread prejudice and discrimination, often cause acute distress (Cochran, 2001; Freedman, 1971; Gonsiorek, 1991; Hart et al., 1978; Hooker, 1957; Meyer, 2003; Reiss, 1980"

I have no disagreement with this position. But be attentive to the conclusion at the end of this statement - "Acute distress"
Now, yes, this distress is caused by the society and is arguably unjust, immoral, not fair, etc...
But is that cause for putting children in that environment? Are you willing to argue that this current risk is acceptable to prove a political point? Is it appropriate to sacrifice the well-being of a child as a means to combat an alleged social injustice?
No, it is not...because to take that position is tantamount to using children as a shield between alleged social injustice and the LGBT.

So, currently we see that the LGBT, for whatever reason, is a less favorable condition (due to the increased risk) for the well-being of children.

The ApA article Lesbian & Gay Parenting - Children of Lesbian & Gay Parents, By Charlotte J. Patterson, PhD is no less biased than NARTH. A careful reading of this document reveals, aside from a considerable amount of ambiguity, a rather striking pattern. Charlotte will reference citations and studies regarding lesbian parenting and then draw a conclusion where she conveniently includes gay men. This reference is quite devoid of specific gay men parenting statistics, and even admits it, and where she does reference a study it is in a casual, shallow manner, often just stating that the study described gay parent in "positive terms".......though she consistently piggy-backs a gay parent endorsement on the back of lesbian parenting findings. Closer inspection of the references confirms my earlier, and current assertions.

Now the APA (capital P) or American Psychiatric Association wrote:
"a growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual."

Steven Nock of the University of Virginia, wrote (in reference to the APA referenced studies) in an affidavit in last year's Ontario Superior Court gay marriage case, "not a single one of those studies was conducted according to generally accepted standards of scientific research."

So, in conclusion we can research all the data, criticize the research methods, and still come to the same conclusions as i have asserted.
The bottom line is that the well-being of the child is the most important aspect of the discussion, yet we see the LGBT community defy the data, the circumstances, and the context of current society by insisting that children are at no worse a risk with them than with anyone else. Yet because of the current climate in our society it is blatantly obvious that this is just a self-centered claim, as usual, by the LGBT community and they are willing to put children in potentially risky situations to prove their point. The idea that the LGBT community can simultaneously alleviate the alleged social injustice they suffer and use children as a means to combat alleged prejudicial treatment is a glaring sign of their misguided selfish behavior having no bounds. If nothing else the well-being of a child far outweighs the risk of being in an environment of "acute distress" or other alleged social pressures.
This is not a call to advocate any alleged social injustices that may or may not be imposed on the LGBT community, but rather a call to recognize that if these social injustices do exist then placing children on the front line is not in their best interest for "well-being".
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
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what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Drifting
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _Drifting »

subgenius wrote:"There is no reliable evidence that homosexual orientation per se impairs psychological functioning, although the social and other circumstances in which lesbians and gay men live, including exposure to widespread prejudice and discrimination, often cause acute distress (Cochran, 2001; Freedman, 1971; Gonsiorek, 1991; Hart et al., 1978; Hooker, 1957; Meyer, 2003; Reiss, 1980"

I have no disagreement with this position. But be attentive to the conclusion at the end of this statement - "Acute distress"
Now, yes, this distress is caused by the society and is arguably unjust, immoral, not fair, etc...
But is that cause for putting children in that environment? Are you willing to argue that this current risk is acceptable to prove a political point? Is it appropriate to sacrifice the well-being of a child as a means to combat an alleged social injustice?
No, it is not...because to take that position is tantamount to using children as a shield between alleged social injustice and the LGBT.



Top of the morn subby old chap, hope you are damn well today.

This seems to suggest that if society ended the discrimination of gay people then same sex couples would make good parents. So the problem lies with organisations who seek to discriminate in say....marital options...for same sex couples, as this propagates bad feeling towards the gay couple.

If society were more liberal like I :wink: then children would have more options for a better upbringing. In which case, I agree with you (is that a first?).
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_subgenius
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _subgenius »

Drifting wrote:
Top of the morn subby old chap, hope you are damn well today.

your hope has been realized, darn near prophetic of you.

This seems to suggest that if society ended the discrimination of gay people then same sex couples would make good parents. So the problem lies with organisations who seek to discriminate in say....marital options...for same sex couples, as this propagates bad feeling towards the gay couple.

it may seem to suggest that due to your prism, but it does not suggest that.
All it currently suggests is that the alleged external discrimination from society provides for inconclusive data. It could easily suggest that this discrimination is not a vice of society but rather a virtue, at which case the data reflects an appropriate condition.
So there is no "problem" per se.
propagating "bad feelings" towards the LGBT, in the context of this topic, has yet to be proven as a "bad idea".

If society were more liberal like I :wink: then children would have more options for a better upbringing.

Having LGBT same-sex parents has yet to be proven as a "better option" or even as an equal option....at best lesbian couples have been given equal footing with divorced parents.
But i digress...the point was that married biological parents offer the greatest benefit to children and as such should be what society strives towards (as the rule) - this equates to a virtue, and this virtue is recognized and rewarded by society in an effort to encourage its members. Members who do not perpetuate the encouragement of this virtue should not necessarily be punished, but i can not say that they deserve the same reward...or benefit.
Now, before you throw all the "exceptions" at me, realize that i was speaking towards the "rule".

In which case, I agree with you (is that a first?).

:eek:
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Drifting
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _Drifting »

Glad to hear it sub.

So, do we think the pecking order in terms of 'best environment to raise a child' is:
1. Male/Female parents
2. Single parent of either sex
3. Same sex parents

Or

1. Male/Female parents
2. Same sex parents
3. Single parent of either sex
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Darth J
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _Darth J »

subgenius wrote:
Drifting wrote:...(Link worked fine for me, have you paid your ISP bill lately?)

there is an ISP bill?
works for me now...must have been due to your intervention on my behalf.

it is clear that this proposal is not about rights, but rather is an attempt to redefine marriage for the whole of society at the behest of a small minority of activists.
Same-sex marriage would eliminate entirely in law the basic idea of a mother and a father for every child. It would create a society which deliberately chooses to deprive a child of either a mother or a father


could easily apply that argument in our country.


All right, then let's apply that argument to our country.

Please tell me which jurisdiction in the United States requires having children, or having the ability to have children, as a condition to a marriage being legally valid.

Since you consistently assert, with no reference to positive law, that marriage is about having children, I take it you will agree with me that the childless geriatric second marriages of Dallin H. Oaks and Russel M. Nelson should not be legally recognized.

Also, since you assert that recognizing same-sex marriage would be wrong because it would "eliminate" the heretofore unknown legal requirement for marriage to be about a mother and a father for every child, please explain the following Utah statute:

Utah Code Ann. ss. 30-1-1. Incestuous marriages void.
(1) The following marriages are incestuous and void from the beginning, whether the relationship is legitimate or illegitimate:
(a) marriages between parents and children;
(b) marriages between ancestors and descendants of every degree;
(c) marriages between brothers and sisters of the half as well as the whole blood;
(d) marriages between uncles and nieces or aunts and nephews;
(e) marriages between first cousins, except as provided in Subsection (2); or
(f) marriages between any persons related to each other within and not including the fifth degree of consanguinity computed according to the rules of the civil law, except as provided in Subsection (2).
(2) First cousins may marry under the following circumstances:
(a) both parties are 65 years of age or older; or
(b) if both parties are 55 years of age or older, upon a finding by the district court, located in the district in which either party resides, that either party is unable to reproduce.


those poor lemmings.....


Considering that the belief about lemmings to which you allude is a myth, it is fitting that you should use it to characterize those you disagree with.
_subgenius
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _subgenius »

Drifting wrote:Glad to hear it sub.

So, do we think the pecking order in terms of 'best environment to raise a child' is:
1. Male/Female parents
2. Single parent of either sex
3. Same sex parents

Or

1. Male/Female parents
2. Same sex parents
3. Single parent of either sex


all else being equal - we think, and most data supports, the pecking order is as follows:
1. happily married biological parents
2. everybody else
3. grandparents
4. same sex parents
5. left in the forest covered in bacon with no parents
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Buffalo
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _Buffalo »

subgenius wrote:
Drifting wrote:Glad to hear it sub.

So, do we think the pecking order in terms of 'best environment to raise a child' is:
1. Male/Female parents
2. Single parent of either sex
3. Same sex parents

Or

1. Male/Female parents
2. Same sex parents
3. Single parent of either sex


all else being equal - we think, and most data supports, the pecking order is as follows:
1. happily married biological parents
2. everybody else
3. grandparents
4. same sex parents
5. left in the forest covered in bacon with no parents


http://www.livescience.com/6073-childre ... -show.html
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_subgenius
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _subgenius »


thanks for popping up Buffalot...perhaps you would care to read the thread, pretty sure we covered this...but thanks for contributing....better late than never, right?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_subgenius
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _subgenius »

Darth J wrote:......
(a) both parties are 65 years of age or older; or
(b) if both parties are 55 years of age or older, upon a finding by the district court, located in the district in which either party resides, that either party is unable to reproduce. [/color]

not sure how "relative" any of that was for the topic at hand,
but i always enjoy that reference...i like how it is ok for 1st cousins between 55 and 65, but otherwise not...hmmm...what the heck is going on with 1st cousins between 55 and 65 that makes marriage suddenly ok?

those poor lemmings.....

Considering that the belief about lemmings to which you allude is a myth, it is fitting that you should use it to characterize those you disagree with.[/quote]
the "facts" about lemmings is irrelevant to the colloquialism - this point is proven by the simple fact that you "knew" what i was talking about.
But i am sure the lemming anti-defamation league appreciates your services.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Darth J
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Re: UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

Post by _Darth J »

subgenius wrote:
Darth J wrote:......
(a) both parties are 65 years of age or older; or
(b) if both parties are 55 years of age or older, upon a finding by the district court, located in the district in which either party resides, that either party is unable to reproduce. [/color]

not sure how "relative" any of that was for the topic at hand,
but i always enjoy that reference...i like how it is ok for 1st cousins between 55 and 65, but otherwise not...hmmm...what the heck is going on with 1st cousins between 55 and 65 that makes marriage suddenly ok?


Despite what you apparently thought was a clever pun, "relative" is not the right word. The word you are looking for is "relevant." This is relevant as to whether the legal meaning of marriage is contingent upon bearing children. It is not, as shown by your failure to cite a single jurisdiction among the 51 in the United States where having children, or being able to have children, is a condition precedent to marriage.

What is going on between first cousins between 55 and 65 years of age that makes marriage suddenly okay is a judge making a finding of fact that at least one of the putative spouses cannot reproduce. Women age 65 and over are significantly past menopause, and therefore cannot conceive. Contrary to your endless unsupported assertions that marriage is about having children, here is a class of marriage that is legally valid specifically because the spouses cannot have children.

Prohibiting incestuous marriages has a rational basis, because fertile heterosexual married people can have children. The converse is not true, however. If the legal purpose or definition of marriage is to have children, there is no rational basis to validate a marriage specifically because having children is impossible. There is a rational basis, however, if marriage as a legal relationship is simply a domestic partnership---and as a matter of law, that is what marriage is.

Incest is also a crime, regardless of any purported marriage of the persons involved. http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_07_010200.htm Like incestuous marriage, there is a rational basis for unmarried incest to be a felony: to prevent inbred children. Marriage is not required to have children, and having children is not required for marriage. While I'm sure you feel that your uninformed and fatuous babbling presents a devastating argument, you are arguing about your cherished religious beliefs and value judgments, not law.

Considering that the belief about lemmings to which you allude is a myth, it is fitting that you should use it to characterize those you disagree with.

the "facts" about lemmings is irrelevant to the colloquialism - this point is proven by the simple fact that you "knew" what i was talking about.
But i am sure the lemming anti-defamation league appreciates your services.


"Magic Mirror, on the wall, who is the fairest one of all?"

I know what that reference is talking about, too, but that doesn't mean that Snow White is a true story. And I know the meaning of the words you are posting. That does not mean what you are saying is accurate or knowledgeable. Much like you just want to make a point about lemmings whether or not it has any basis in reality, you are just trying to sacralize marriage and talk about religious dogma, whether or not it has any basis in positive law.
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