Some of MY beliefs......by Jo1952

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_Franktalk
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Re: Some of MY beliefs......by Jo1952

Post by _Franktalk »

Samantabhadra wrote:In what sense is your belief "Christian" if you are claiming that your teachers "perform even greater works than Jesus?" That is most certainly not what is meant by Apostolic Succession.


Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

But the idea that those who followed Christ would do greater works came from the mouth of Christ. So maybe I am confused by what you refer to as Apostolic Succession. Maybe you can expand on your statement.
_Samantabhadra
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Re: Some of MY beliefs......by Jo1952

Post by _Samantabhadra »

Franktalk wrote:Maybe you can expand on your statement
.

Christ's work was the salvation of mankind. No human work can compare.

I'll have to look into the verse you cited but I'm pretty sure the standard gloss is something to the effect of, Christ is saying "You ain't seen nothin' yet."
_sheryl
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Re: Some of MY beliefs......by Jo1952

Post by _sheryl »

Samantabhadra wrote:Hello Sheryl and Jo!


Hi Samantabhadra!


Such as? I've already mentioned Origen. Specific sources other than Origen?


The Gnostic texts are early Christian writings, and teachings on reincarnation or transmigration of the soul, which is a more accurate description, fills the Gnostic texts. Also it is known that the Pharisees believed in reincarnation, as cited by Josephus, as well as Jewish Mystics, then and now.

I have also found mention of reincarnation in the apocrypha. If you are interested you can do an internet search and read about these teachings yourself. It is not my place to convince anyone of reincarnation. It is a verity that has to be awakened in each person by Grace. If you are ready to hear, our Lord and Savior will teach you directly.


Do you have any evidence to support this claim?


Yes, I offered the Gnostic texts of the Nag Hammadi library as support of this claim. They are early Christian writings that were removed from the public, though they remained in oral form for 1700 years. My tradition, as shared, taught what is contained in many of the Gnostic texts orally, face to face long before the actual writings were found. You do not seem to be reading my whole post.

But again, it is not my place to convince you. If you are sincerely and honestly interested in learning what the early Christians taught about reincarnation, the Holy Spirit will guide you in your seeking.

Note I am not disputing the existence of some form of continuity in esoteric Christianity. I am (passingly) familiar with John Dee and Enochian magick. What I want to know is: do you have any specific references in specific Nag Hammadi texts to support this claim?


I am not familiar with John Dee, but Enochian Magick is a dark tradition, not a true Wisdom Tradition.

If you are asking for specific references to reincarnation in the Gnostic texts, one just needs to google to find them. They are abundant.

If you are talking about specific references within the Nag Hammadi library to this statement: but they remained oral and hidden for 1700 years because the Catholic Church killed those they found who taught about it. It has only been recently that the early Christian writings have been rewritten, as well as discovered in ancient transcripts such as the Nag Hammadi library....

...that is nonsensical and illogical. The texts found in the Nag Hammadi library are ancient writings of the early Christians, the fact that while they were buried for 1700 years, the teachings contained in them were taught orally in hidden traditions could not have been written about specifically in the buried texts themselves, for they were written/buried before this occurred. We do though have prophecy in canonical scripture that speaks about what did happened. In 2 Thessolonians 2, Apostle Paul prophesies: Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first. This 1200 years when true Christianity was sent underground is the falling away (from the Council of Nicea to the Age of Enlightenment not surprisingly is called the Dark Ages). The discovery of the Nag Hammadi library is confirmation and verification of this - revealing that the oral tradition of the many hidden or esoteric traditions matches what had been recorded in writing during the early years of Christianity.

The Canonical Bible is the Bible of the Dark Ages, the falling away, and so while it is still a collection of Holy Writings, much of what the Risen Christ and his Apostles taught was removed, allowing the Dark Ages to manifest. The Gnostic texts actually contain higher teachings than the canonical Gospels for they are the teachings given to us by the Risen Christ.






In what sense is your belief "Christian" if you are claiming that your teachers "perform even greater works than Jesus?" That is most certainly not what is meant by Apostolic Succession.


I would suggest that the definition of Apostolic Succession that you are referring to was created by those who could not perform greater works than Yeshua. By greater works, Yeshua was of course referring to healings, forgiveness of sins, raising from the dead, controlling the weather, changing the properties of matter, eg changing water into wine, preparing places in the heavens to which he would later take his disciples, ascending, appearing in a Light Body, etc.

True Apostles of Christ today, carry greater Christ Presence and Power than Jesus embodied two thousand years ago.

1) The Catholic Church--more generally, the Apostolic Church--determined that reincarnation was heterodox for two reasons. First, each and every one of us was created by God. Reincarnation complicates this point for obvious reasons. Second, there is a temptation to think, well, if I'm just going to be reincarnated, why should I strive in this life?


Yes, as the Gnostic texts reveal, when we find the truth it will at first trouble us, then it will amaze us and we will rule over all (overcome all).

Reincarnation is not what is typically thought. What you consider as 'you' (I use you generically here referring to each of us in an unenlightened state) is a temporary phenomenon, like a blade of grass, or the blossoms on a tree. (You are actually much more than you think you are, just as a blade grass is more than simply a blade of grass and a blossom on a tree is more than a blossom on the tree, but if you do not realize, actualize, that what is you is connected to the eternal vine that is the Body of Christ, that what is you is actually a manifestation of the Body of Christ, what you think of as you will eventually cease to exist. In other words you do not reincarnate, you are a reincarnation. It is your eternal soul that reincarnates, taking on temporary personality after personality, life after life, like the blossoms on a tree, until it has evolved sufficiently to produce a pure/perfect personality that can be liberated, or embraced by its - brought into awareness of its true self as an - eternal being. As Jesus taught, only a few in each generation will have evolved sufficiently to find eternal life.

2) The Nag Hammadi "Library" was a collection of scrolls in earthenware jugs. It was never a "library." The texts vanished because they were not copied. Texts vanished from the ancient world all the time. There is no need to see a conspiracy.


Were not the writings of the evil, heretic gnostics burned? Wouldn't it be more likely that the Nag Hammadi library (eg collection of texts) represent copies of writings that were otherwise buried in earthenware jugs to protect them from being destroyed by the heretic hunters?

That said, how do you know that what Buddhism believes today correctly reflects what was originally taught? I think it is difficult to truly know what those original teachings were without spiritual enlightenment.


When one connects with a Wisdom Tradition, they glean a picture of the unfolding of revelation over the entire earth and how we are not separate from one another. When advanced souls come into physicality, and are realized, actualized, finding liberation, the Light they invoke affects the entire world, and all of creation. For example, the principle and Power of Grace entered into the Buddhist tradition during the time the Jesus walked the earth. The Light he brought into the world affected all. We see this same pattern of evolving in all the world's religious traditions. We are on this journey together. In fact, personal salvation is a lie. When a soul is liberated (realizing and embodying its eternal self) it joins in the great work - the Father's Work - of liberating the entire world, incarnating in future lives as the elect, or elder siblings of humanity, to aid their younger siblings in finding salvation.

This is why Jesus taught that you cannot be his disciple unless you hate your life, unless you lose your life. We must hate, lose what we think we are - be freed from our false self-identity - to gain realization of what we truly are. We must lose our false life - what we think we are, to gain True Life, Eternal Life, what we really are.

Absolutely. That's why lineage is so important. In the Apostolic Church, there is an unbroken lineage of masters going back, bishop to bishop to bishop, all the way to the Apostles, and from them to Christ. In Buddhism, lineage serves the same function. My teacher had a teacher, who had a teacher, and so on all the way back to the Buddha.


True Masters are anointed and ordained by God, not by humankind; hence, one who comes from above, and who is reborn from above, and who walks in beauty and holiness, having knowledge of the Kingdom of Heaven - the Pleroma of Light, the heavens, and all realms and worlds of creation. Anywhere you are seeing unenlightened men or women voting on who the next master will be, you have a false apostolic succession. A True Apostolic Succession is the passing on of the Light Presence and Power of Christ from one generation to the next, done so by God. The one who is anointed, who embodies fully the Light Presence and Power of Christ, is the one selected by God to be the next Master. There is no question, there is no voting. God speaks, God ordains and anoints and the next Master arises.

Shalom!

Sheryl
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Re: Some of MY beliefs......by Jo1952

Post by _sheryl »

Franktalk wrote:
Samantabhadra wrote:In what sense is your belief "Christian" if you are claiming that your teachers "perform even greater works than Jesus?" That is most certainly not what is meant by Apostolic Succession.


Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

But the idea that those who followed Christ would do greater works came from the mouth of Christ. So maybe I am confused by what you refer to as Apostolic Succession. Maybe you can expand on your statement.


Hi Frank!

Samantabhadra is referring to a comment that I made connecting Apostolic Succession to Jesus' prophecy that those who believe in him would do greater works than he. Those who believe in me would certainly include the Apostles! The greater truth here is that not only do many claiming Apostolic Succession not do greater works than Jesus, neither do their followers. When we find a true Apostolic Succession, the Apostle and the followers both will be doing greater works. If we are looking at a tradition where even the claimed Apostle is not doing greater works, then we know we are looking at a false claim.

Shalom!

Sheryl
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Re: Some of MY beliefs......by Jo1952

Post by _Franktalk »

sheryl wrote: If we are looking at a tradition where even the claimed Apostle is not doing greater works, then we know we are looking at a false claim.

Shalom!

Sheryl


I agree with every fiber of my being.
_sheryl
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Re: Popular idea

Post by _sheryl »

jo1952 wrote:
kjones wrote:Multiple probations...a popular idea, these days...however, it has no support in the scriptures. I have a cousin (a woman) who is deep into new age stuff, the Book Of Miracles, things like that. She also believes in multiple probations, it doesn't matter to her what the scriptures say....


Hello Kjones!

Hopefully you have been keeping track of the posts which have followed yours, as they contain information which happen to address your concern.

I would also like to offer this verse for your consideration, as it may also be speaking of reincarnation:

2 Peter 1:15 (KJV)

Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.


The Greek definition of this use of the word "endeavour" is: to be eager and diligent.

I would like to expand a little on what Sheryl has shared with us. by the way, I see her as a spirit who has achieved a great deal of spiritual enlightenment; much, much, much moreso than my humble efforts have achieved.

The Jewish Kabbalah had been an oral tradition handed down through the ages until the Christian era. Here is some of what Lance S. Owens wrote in his article, "Joseph Smith and Kabbalah: The Occult Connection". This article won the Best Article Award for 1995 from the Mormon History Association.

In centuries past the teachings of the Kabbalah were closely guarded and taught to a chosen few, but today the Jewish Kabbalah is being taught to anyone with a unveiled spiritual perception and a desire to learn. Joseph Smith had a desire to learn.

The Kabbalah--the Hebrew esoteric doctrines--is a system of teachings with which only the very learned attempt to wrestle. It is claimed to have been handed down by oral tradition from angelic sources, through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Seventy Elders, to David and to Solomon. "Man has ears to hear, but hears not, He has eyes to see, but sees not.” King David.

King David was a great warrior by day and a great mystic of the Kabbalah by night. Many of the great Cabbalists of history made reference to the above quote when illustrating one of the first spiritual laws of Life. No attempt was made to commit this sacred knowledge to writing, till, in the early centuries of the Christian era (authorities differ widely as to the date). The pupils of Rabbi Simeon ben Joachi put his teachings into writing; and this in later ages became known as the "Zohar," or "Book of Splendor religion of the Kabbalah as a gift of the Deity to mankind."

The Zohar, which is only a part of the Kabbalah, is the great store-house of the esoteric teaching of the ancient Hebrews. The following is a quote from the Sephar ha Zohar. "The souls must re-enter the Absolute, from whence they have emerged. But to accomplish this end they must develop the perfections; the germ of which is planted in them. And if they have not developed these traits in this one life, then they must commence another, a third, and so forth. They must go on like this until they acquire the condition that allows them to associate again with God".


Since our Old Testament came from the Jews, I think that the Kabbalah should also be of great interest to Christendom.

Blessings,

jo


Hi Jo!

Like anything in this world, there is distortion, which is why during dark times true teachings were not been written down but only passed on face to face, teacher to student. This is the case with Kabbalah. And now that it has been written down there is much distortion, there is much dark Kabbalah out there, the mysteries being distorted to serve the ego or bestial self. So some of you reading this may have encountered a dark tradition espousing Kabbalah. But not all traditions using Kabbalah to communicate the verities that are awakened within are dark. Some are True Wisdom Traditions, such as the one that I follow.

How do we discern? It takes knowledge and experience and understanding to be able to discern, so Kabbalah can really only be truly understood by those who have undergone some level of purification - releasing their attachment to name and form, or as Yeshua taught, hate this life and their self identity in this world and are willing to lose it to find their true Self in Eternal Life.

Kabbalah simply means to receive or Revelation and it is a recording of what is revealed as we journey deeper into ourselves, discovering our True Nature in Christ.

It is not New Age - surely some New Agers have stolen and use Kabbalah, but Kabbalah itself is simply what is revealed of creation when we draw nearer to God, and to study it is a means whereby we are able to draw nearer. Our lineage considers Zohar (see above for a definition) to be Torah, along with all Holy Writings, and the study of Torah brings healing to our self and to the world in entirety, from physicality to the spiritual forms behind the physical.

And indeed Jo, Kabbalah should be of a great interest to Christians everywhere! It teaches us the verities of the Trinity and the Son. It speaks of the Bride, the Shekinah, who is the consort of the Son. It explains what was revealed in Yeshua, why the incarnation was necessary and what it was to accomplish. And so we teach what is called Christian Kabbalah - a greater understanding of Kabbalah has been given and received with the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection of the Messiah.

Shalom!

Sheryl
_jo1952
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Re: Popular idea

Post by _jo1952 »

sheryl wrote:Hi Jo!

Like anything in this world, there is distortion, which is why during dark times true teachings were not been written down but only passed on face to face, teacher to student. This is the case with Kabbalah. And now that it has been written down there is much distortion, there is much dark Kabbalah out there, the mysteries being distorted to serve the ego or bestial self. So some of you reading this may have encountered a dark tradition espousing Kabbalah. But not all traditions using Kabbalah to communicate the verities that are awakened within are dark. Some are True Wisdom Traditions, such as the one that I follow.

How do we discern? It takes knowledge and experience and understanding to be able to discern, so Kabbalah can really only be truly understood by those who have undergone some level of purification - releasing their attachment to name and form, or as Yeshua taught, hate this life and their self identity in this world and are willing to lose it to find their true Self in Eternal Life.

Kabbalah simply means to receive or Revelation and it is a recording of what is revealed as we journey deeper into ourselves, discovering our True Nature in Christ.

It is not New Age - surely some New Agers have stolen and use Kabbalah, but Kabbalah itself is simply what is revealed of creation when we draw nearer to God, and to study it is a means whereby we are able to draw nearer. Our lineage considers Zohar (see above for a definition) to be Torah, along with all Holy Writings, and the study of Torah brings healing to our self and to the world in entirety, from physicality to the spiritual forms behind the physical.

And indeed Jo, Kabbalah should be of a great interest to Christians everywhere! It teaches us the verities of the Trinity and the Son. It speaks of the Bride, the Shekinah, who is the consort of the Son. It explains what was revealed in Yeshua, why the incarnation was necessary and what it was to accomplish. And so we teach what is called Christian Kabbalah - a greater understanding of Kabbalah has been given and received with the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection of the Messiah.

Shalom!

Sheryl


Hi Sheryl!

As I have continued my seeking and my spirit has continued its process of awakening, I have started to read more and more ancient writings. I started reading the Apocrypha several months ago and as I read I somehow know when what I am reading is True and when what I am reading is false. The Holy Spirit is doing the filtering for me - even at my current stage of awakening. What I continue to enjoy is that I am able to understand more and more of what was hidden from me before - especially in the Bible. So now, in addition to the layers and layers (they now seem never-ending), and the patterns and the types, etc., the parts of the Bible which I could not understand at all before are slowly opening up to my understanding.

What a wonderful and beautiful journey is our spiritual awakening, regardless of whatever trials we may be suffering in our physical body (which I have come to appreciate are part of the journey as well; and that they are for our own good as well as the good of others). Awesome!!!

Shalom my dear friend!

jo
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_Drifting
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Re: Some of MY beliefs......by Jo1952

Post by _Drifting »

I believe, that just as in Old Testament and New Testament times, God continues to communicate with His children through prophets all over the earth whose teachings are manifested through many different religions. I also believe the following passage (which, by the way, should put an end to the incorrect interpretation of the Book of Revelation wherein some people believe there will be no further revelation and/or prophecies)


Jo, you seem to be ignoring me.
Is that because you think I am too young or because you cannot support your words with actual examples?

I would like you to provide some examples of where you think God has spoken to us through 'prophets all over the world'.
Howabout you list a single specific example of God speaking to us during the last 12 months from say three different religions?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Franktalk
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Re: Some of MY beliefs......by Jo1952

Post by _Franktalk »

Drifting wrote:I would like you to provide some examples of where you think God has spoken to us through 'prophets all over the world'.
Howabout you list a single specific example of God speaking to us during the last 12 months from say three different religions?


One day about eighty years ago a group of people were traveling from one city to the next here in Arizona. They traveled all day and setup camp. After the fires were lit and everything was ready for the night the leader said to the others that they must move. For it was dangerous to stay. No one asked why they just loaded everything up and in the dark traveled for miles before setting up camp in a different location. In the middle of the night a man entered the camp and said that he was part of another group who had camped miles back on the trail. He said a raiding party had come in and killed everyone but he had managed to escape in the dark.

The leader of the group had received a message from God. In declaring the site dangerous he was giving a prophecy. This prophecy will not show up on an internet search. The prophecy was not given to a church but to a small group of people. I believe that millions of prophecies have occurred all over the world and in all groups of people of faith. What you seek is a point in which to argue. Something you can find fault. I hope one day your eyes open and your ears open. But until that day I pity you.
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Re: Some of MY beliefs......by Jo1952

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:
Drifting wrote:I would like you to provide some examples of where you think God has spoken to us through 'prophets all over the world'.
Howabout you list a single specific example of God speaking to us during the last 12 months from say three different religions?


One day about eighty years ago a group of people were traveling from one city to the next here in Arizona. They traveled all day and setup camp. After the fires were lit and everything was ready for the night the leader said to the others that they must move. For it was dangerous to stay. No one asked why they just loaded everything up and in the dark traveled for miles before setting up camp in a different location. In the middle of the night a man entered the camp and said that he was part of another group who had camped miles back on the trail. He said a raiding party had come in and killed everyone but he had managed to escape in the dark.

The leader of the group had received a message from God. In declaring the site dangerous he was giving a prophecy. This prophecy will not show up on an internet search. The prophecy was not given to a church but to a small group of people. I believe that millions of prophecies have occurred all over the world and in all groups of people of faith. What you seek is a point in which to argue. Something you can find fault. I hope one day your eyes open and your ears open. But until that day I pity you.

Firstly CFR

Secondly, what a shame God moved them on. Had they stayed they would have met up with the other group and been too powerful for those pesky Lamanites.

Thirdly, why didn't God prompt the second group tomove on, rather than allowing them to die?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
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