Franktalk - what does he believe/not believe...?

[_Themis]

Drifting,

A belief does not have to have reason or evidence. I wonder why you keep acting like it does. Can you comprehend that someone can hold on to a belief with no evidence at all? Can you comprehend that just maybe there are truths that one can hold onto that the soul just knows to be true? I think not. So because of this wide valley between us there is not much to say. It is as if we speak different languages.

you misunderstand Drifting's 2 rules for true belief:
1. Everyone's belief requires substantial evidence and proof
2. Drifting's beliefs are exempt from rule #1.

I am willing to bet drifting is fine with people, including himself, admitting to beliefs they have no evidence for. It shows honesty.

[_subgenius]

I am willing to bet drifting is fine with people, including himself, admitting to beliefs they have no evidence for. It shows honesty.

I disagree with your premise and will take that wager, based on the evidence:

On what grounds do you hold this belief?

Drifting will only be "fine with people" that admit to beliefs without evidence that he/she agrees with already.

[_MCB]

Drifting will only be "fine with people" that admit to beliefs without evidence that he/she agrees with already.

Odd statement. There is more evidence against Mormonism than there is against Catholicism. I have never seen him say anything against Catholicism. Yet I also know that he is not Catholic.

[_Themis]

I am willing to bet drifting is fine with people, including himself, admitting to beliefs they have no evidence for. It shows honesty.

I disagree with your premise and will take that wager, based on the evidence:

On what grounds do you hold this belief?

Drifting will only be "fine with people" that admit to beliefs without evidence that he/she agrees with already.

Looks like you lose. You quote him only asking a question, not making the assertion you want to dishonestly put into his mouth. I have brought up this nasty habit of yours before.

[Guest]

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[_MCB]

I enjoy your perception, mktavish.

[Guest]

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[_Franktalk]

Frank , there is all kinds of evidence you could put forth on the question asked. I think your just not understanding , if you say "you can hold onto a belief without evidence of god giving us messages over time" that's pretty much saying god never gives us messages.

The problem is what is considered evidence by each person. Personal evidence is fine for me but not fine for others. Now others who have had the same experience may give some degree of evidence to anothers personal evidence. But someone who wallows in the world and has not has a spiritual experience they reject my personal experience. Then we go round and round. Been there done that.

The other half of this deals with what people of the world consider evidence in the world. The whole structure of scientific evidence is considered fact even those things based on assumptions. The worldly people hold to group think and a show of expert hands to determine truth. I do not do that. Those things that are directly observable and those things linked closely with observation are fine with me but beyond that I have made the decision that I will hold off with declaring the world's knowledge as fact. This frustrates many people I come across. They think that that position is weak and comes from a lack of knowledge. But I have studied the sciences and the history of science enough to form my own opinion on how valid that view is. I feel I am on solid ground. It is science that is constantly moving and making assumptions that later turn out to be false. The history of science details this pattern over and over. So all conversations end up the same. Neither side is willing to let go of their world view. It is God alone who can turn the hearts of man. I do not attempt it. I can describe what I feel is true but after that the argument which follows is useless.

[Guest]

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[_Franktalk]

My wheels are turning though , and I'm going to come up with a for/against ... Frank's belief and Drifting's question "post" on chalking it up. Just for a fun exercise , nothing serious kinda thing. And well see where it goes. Although I'm gona have to post it in the Telestial so we don't have restrictions. Maybe see ya'll there

That is a good idea. But each person who comments should define their world view so you can see how each world view type will determine their for/against judgements. It might be eye opening for some.

For instance you could include the following questions.

1. Do you believe that the indirect evidence obtained by science supplies facts about the distant past?
2. Do you believe that human experience is limited to the senses and that spiritual matters are figments of an over active mind?
3. Do you believe that man evolved from a common ancestor with chimps?
4. Do you believe that life ends when the body dies?
5. Do you believe that man makes up what is moral and society has created good and evil?

I would answer no to each of these. Some people who declare them self Christian may answer yes to some of them.