Commentary on Romans 1 through 9

[_Franktalk]

Albion,

I ask questions so you can see what your beliefs look like. But let me describe my beliefs a different way.

Take two men. The first one accepts Christ and learns to live as Christ lived. By the end of his life he walks as Christ walked and loves God and his fellow neighbor.

The second man accepts Christ but does not walk as Christ walked. He steals but feels bad about it and repents. He does this over and over. He sleeps with his neighbors wife but feels bad about it and repents. He hates Jews because they killed Christ. But he feels bad about hating Jews so he repents and ask forgiveness. He also hates the guy down the street with the funny looking car and kids. He feels bad about hating his neighbor so he repents. He lies to his wife about his secret life and hides the receipts for the hotel rooms over the years. He goes to Sunday school and teaches kids the golden rule yet does not live it. He feels bad about his lies so he repents. This goes on until he dies.

Now in my world the first man goes to heaven. In my world the second man has not learned a thing. He goes back until his spirit can overcome the world.

In your world there is no difference between the two and they both go to heaven.

Am I right in what I said? If not explain what you believe and use these two examples.

[_Albion]

I think you are assuming a point contrary to what I have stated. It is clear that the life demonstrated by the second man has not been renewed in Christ. Such persistent sinfulness is not indicative of a new life in Christ....as Paul said, by their fruits.... He may claim a faith in Christ but his life demonstrates the falsity of his claim. The first man clearly lives out a life in Christ...a life based on the gift of salvation he has already received and not earned by the life he has lived. His life is a testament to God's saving grace which has transformed his heart and thus his life. A spirit filled life lived for Christ is the fruit of salvation...not the earning of it.

[_Franktalk]

I think you are assuming a point contrary to what I have stated. It is clear that the life demonstrated by the second man has not been renewed in Christ. Such persistent sinfulness is not indicative of a new life in Christ....as Paul said, by their fruits.... He may claim a faith in Christ but his life demonstrates the falsity of his claim. The first man clearly lives out a life in Christ...a life based on the gift of salvation he has already received and not earned by the life he has lived. His life is a testament to God's saving grace which has transformed his heart and thus his life. A spirit filled life lived for Christ is the fruit of salvation...not the earning of it.

You are right. By their fruits people are judged. Now describe to me exactly how much fruit and what kind you need to have to obtain eternal life? Now think of all of the other Christians out there answering that same question. I am sure no two would be alike. So now ask yourself if God would leave such a critical thing so arbitrary? I do not think so. I think that all Christians would agree that man number one would pass the test because we all have a witness in scripture that Jesus was pleasing to Father. For us to be pleasing to Father we must be as Christ was. To accept any other level is an assumption based on a lowering of the bar that Christ established. Since that bar is so high it may just take several lifetimes to accomplish. The spirit growing in each probation or life.

[_Franktalk]

Romans 8

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul tells us that those who walk in the spirit are not condemned. Notice he does not say that those in Rome are walking in the spirit. The only one he calls out is himself who is walking in the spirit. The walk with Christ is a walk with Christ. Paul would not know who is on that walk and who is not. From outward behavior we may have a good guess but no absolute knowledge.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The body is of the world and is not subject to the law of God. But our spirit can know the things of God. Paul is asking us to do an almost impossible task. But perfection is not easy. We have a guide in the Holy Ghost. We can ask for spiritual strength to overcome the world. And we can recognize the wisdom of the world as a stumbling block. This last one is very difficult for those who think them self wise. The world will hate you as it hated Christ once you reject the wisdom of the world.


9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

In our walk in the spirit we develop an attitude about the world. It is the thing which has separated us from going back to our Father. A true son of God wants to be with his Father again. This is the true meaning of the prodigal son. A son who went into the world only to find the world did not offer what he thought it did. And then after the son realizes that the world is not what he thought he seeks to return to his Father.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Unless we cry out Abba Father and seek the Father we will be chained here on this earth. Only when we develop our spiritual strength to overcome the world and glory in the tribulations that come our way like Christ did will we be truly a son of God. We can do it. God wants us back and He helps us along the way. He forgives and protects us. The Holy Spirit whispers in our ear to do good and shun evil. The Holy Spirit is not of this world. So you must cast off this world so the Holy Spirit can indwell with you. You will be in the world but not of the world once you start your walk.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The entire creation is in bondage waiting for the children of God to walk in the spirit. As we set ourselves free the creation will be set free as well. When Christ broke the bonds of death the entire creation knew it.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seethe, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

We seek the glorified body that is not in bondage to sin and death. A body that does not die. A body that we can exist in in our everlasting life.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

We have no idea how much help is being directed towards us at this very moment. I thank God for all of His support in this difficult task.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

To help us along our path God has provided the prophets. Those who He selected to give us His message.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, for thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here Paul is describing the power behind the plan of salvation. All we must do is accept the path and not be swayed by tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril, or sword.

[_Albion]

Regarding the first of your last two posts. I couldn't disagree more with your contention. Salvation, eternal life, is an instant free gift based on God's grace the moment the repentant sinner places his trust in Christ as the author of his salvation. From that moment forward he is saved...saved to live his life in the spirit and to shape himself to the example given by Christ. To me, the way you are suggesting it is that God somehow withholds his free gift of salvation until we reach some arbitrary level of faith. Under that scenario there is no way we can ever know in life if we have passed the test and reached the required level. We become just hamsters running forever on the wheel. What kind of free gift is that? I know of no Christian church outside of RC and orthodox (and perhaps even those who are beyond my experience) who believe anything different than what I am suggesting. The overwhelming majority of Christian churches, despite emphasis on certain interpretations and form, are far more uniform in the essentials, such as salvation by grace through faith, that pertain to salvation than you might think. My faith is in Christ for salvation only...and I have no doubt that based upon his promises I will be in heaven with him today should this be my day to depart this world.

[_Franktalk]

....... The overwhelming majority of Christian churches, despite emphasis on certain interpretations and form, are far more uniform in the essentials, such as salvation by grace through faith, that pertain to salvation than you might think.....

But scripture says few will find the way. But with all of this agreement and an easy path then many will find the way. Don't you see how the two don't match?

I understand the need to read scripture in some correct manner. You want to be confident that what you do will please God. Our Father is our Father and we are His children. We want to please Him as any child would want to please their parents. Now we know in scripture what pleases Him. According to your beliefs there is some arbitrary low bar that we must reach based on others interpreting scripture for you. Most people are weak and of course they want the bar set low. That is human nature. It is my belief that the carnal mind of man has set an understanding of scripture to allow the world to still run the men of the world. It is an interpretation of men and not of God. I know that in your heart you know that scripture tells you what makes Father pleased. Now point to a place in scripture that says you don't have to walk as Christ walked. Oh you may find a verse here or there but in the large context it will always add to faith a walk in the spirit. Christ is our example of the walk in the spirit. Paul is our example of the walk in the spirit. Both Paul and John tell us to cast off the world. Christ tells us to cast off the world. Yet you will let the world define scripture for you and set the bar low. Just think about that. Throw everything out that you have ever heard from anyone and read the Bible again. Let it speak to you. It will if you let it. Ignore what I say, trust no man.

[_Franktalk]

Romans 9

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Paul has great sorrow for his fellow Jews. With the Lord as their guide they became the chosen to carry the seed of Christ. It was the Jews who supplied the father of faith. It was the Jews who were chosen to be prophets to bring to the world the message of God. Yet they were not ready when Christ came. So now they are blinded and the rest of the world in the gentiles has been given an opportunity to accept the way. The gentiles for the most part have also followed the Jews in not being ready. For all of the talk of faith there so very few which seek the path to spirituality.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, at this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

The children of men can not change the plan of salvation. The purpose of God is done by the calling of the seed. To carry out the promise that God made.

12 It was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

At various times God will intervene in the affairs of men to carry out His purpose.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Some lessons are very difficult to learn. It is the will of God to have the earth act as that learning ground. God at various times has made vessels of wrath that were fitted to destruction. A classic example of this was Nebuchadnezzar.

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

So as God makes His wrath known He also makes His glory known with vessels of mercy.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

The plan of salvation is for all souls. Only those who refuse after knowing God will suffer spiritual death. But God is longsuffering and patient.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabbath had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah.

The Lord will not allow the balance of good and evil to swing far from center. The world must offer a choice for all who walk in the flesh.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The Jews did stumble but God is not done with them. Where they were used to bring the message to the world they now act as an example for us all. We can all stumble on many things. Many stumble on scripture. They use the wisdom of the world to find a spiritual message. In this they do stumble.

[_Albion]

FT, some thoughts on your comments. Firstly, you know nothing of my salvation experience which came fully outside of any specific church and was between God, the speaking of the Holy Spirit through the Word, and me. Be assured, too, that there is nothing "low bar" about the experience of the word opening up, the wrestling and turmoil that brings conviction, and the ultimate surrender to God's saving grace in Christ. It is far from a "low bar" experience. There is, too, nothing "low bar" about God's declaration that the believer is justified, made right before him, right now... not at some future date... not based on the deeds of life and law...but as a free gift because of his amazing grace through his Son. The God of the Bible does not say to his children: "I have this wonderful gift for you...but you're not going to get it or even know if you're going to get it, until you prove to me that you are worthy of it." I don't know how you define grace...but that certainly isn't it.

Again, despite explaining to you over and over you keep returning to this false characterization of Christian belief that believing one is saved is a licence to do whatever you please. Believers are saved TO a life pleasing to God and not BY a life pleasing to God. God is pleased and the heavens rejoice when a single soul receives salvation by a heart felt faith in Christ...salvation to a life lived in the Spirit. Relative to the numbers who have lived, those who rejoice in salvation are few.

I am amazed, too, that you can so easily dismiss 2,000 years of spiritual discovery by devout and devoted believers coupled with learned scholarship so easily. The witness of millions of Christians is that "we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained (past tense and not a future tense because Paul is talking to believers who rest in the assurance that their salvation is assured in the here and now) access by faith into this grace(the grace of forgiveness that we do not nor can ever deserve) in which we NOW stand." Romans 5:1-2

I submit that no one will ever know peace and rest until they rest in the all encompassing knowledge that they are reconciled to God through and by the free gift of salvation in his Son only. If works are required to receive this free gift...it is, as Paul points out, wages earned and in no way can be considered free. Good luck on trying to be sinless...only one living person (Jesus) has ever achieved it or ever will achieve it ... and that's why he was the perfect sacrifice to meet the demands of justice for you and I. If you could possibly reach his perfection, why would you need him at all. The believer's perfection is Christ for whom the believer lives as directed by the Holy Spirit.

[_Franktalk]

FT, some thoughts on your comments. Firstly, you know nothing of my salvation experience which came fully outside of any specific church and was between God, the speaking of the Holy Spirit through the Word, and me. Be assured, too, that there is nothing "low bar" about the experience of the word opening up, the wrestling and turmoil that brings conviction, and the ultimate surrender to God's saving grace in Christ. It is far from a "low bar" experience. There is, too, nothing "low bar" about God's declaration that the believer is justified, made right before him, right now... not at some future date... not based on the deeds of life and law...but as a free gift because of his amazing grace through his Son. The God of the Bible does not say to his children: "I have this wonderful gift for you...but you're not going to get it or even know if you're going to get it, until you prove to me that you are worthy of it." I don't know how you define grace...but that certainly isn't it.

.....

I am amazed, too, that you can so easily dismiss 2,000 years of spiritual discovery by devout and devoted believers coupled with learned scholarship so easily. The witness of millions of Christians is that "we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained (past tense and not a future tense because Paul is talking to believers who rest in the assurance that their salvation is assured in the here and now) access by faith into this grace(the grace of forgiveness that we do not nor can ever deserve) in which we NOW stand." Romans 5:1-2

......

I understand your position. It is born of many years of man's attempt to understand the Bible. But let us set that aside for a moment and read what Christ says about this subject.

A Commentary on the Seven Letters to the Seven Churches

In the seven letters to the seven churches it is Jesus who describes who is doing good and who is doing badly. So we can use these letters to judge how we are doing in our own walk in the spirit. So let us ignore what man has to say about what is required to please God and read what God says. These letters apply to each of us.

Revelation 2

1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Here is a list of those things which Jesus is saying they are doing correctly. He states that in their works, labour, and patience they are doing fine. He also states that they have correctly purged false teachers among them. He also states that in the test of faith they have borne, have patience, and have not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Here Jesus is indicating that they are not perfect. Your first love is the love of God which we are to do with all of our mind, heart, and soul. So they must love something else more than God. That something is not mentioned and it really does not matter what it is.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Revelation 2

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Jesus has indicated that they need to do one thing and that is love God first and foremost. He indicates that this one thing will prevent them from going to heaven. We know this because their candlestick is in heaven, John saw it there. Jesus is saying that unless they repent he will remove it. Notice how the love of God is called the first works.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The doctrine of the Nicolaitanes is when a leader of the church is looked at beyond an administer and is considered the pathway to God. The other half of this doctrine is when the leader and the members allow this to happen. In rejecting this doctrine the members are being told that what they hate Jesus also hates. In this they are doing well but that is not enough to negate their single fault.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

In this church nothing bad is said about them. Jesus says He knows their works, their tribulation, and how they are rich in spirit (but poverty on the earth). He tells them to be faithful unto death. I take it that they are being killed because of their beliefs. This trial of their faith will lead them to a crown of life. I take this as eternal life. Their faith being tested is what leads them to life. Their faith alone is not enough.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

To overcome is a thing of action, a test or trial that you go through and come out without falling away. Your faith must be stronger than the trial you must endure. To overcome is a measure of your faith.

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

In this church the people have faith and hold to the name of Christ. This even in the face of Satan, they must live in an area that he must rule.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

So even though these people hold to the name of Christ they have problems. They look to their church leaders instead of God for those things of God. If you listen to other men and not know if they speak from revelation then you do not have the Spirit with you. The lack of being guided by the Spirit is what allows the doctrione of the Nicolaitanes to manifest. This is the thing that Christ hates.

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

It seems that this church is doing well but they have a problem in purging out those who teach bad doctrine and practices. It appears to me that they want to do the things which God wants them to do but at some point it becomes to difficult. Something stops them.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Jesus says that He is not happy that they allow someone among them to teach and seduce the servants of Christ to do evil things. This implies that good people can do bad things if you allow the temptations of the world to surround you. We need to rebuke evil and not allow it to reach us. We teach evil people to become good we do not let evil people to teach us to be evil. If one keeps their eyes, ears, and mind focused on God then the teaching of the world means nothing.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Now Jesus is focused on Jezebel saying that He gave her time to repent yet she did not.
She and the people who follow her are destined to experience great tribulation unless they repent. It may be that her soul and the ones that follow her may live through multiple probations and eventually go through the Great Tribulation. Or they experience a personal great tribulation that may turn their spirit to the lord.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

It may be that the children refer to the people who follow her. Or it may mean her actual children. It may be that a close association to her will destroy their path. So God may end the probation of those close to her so they can start anew. If your works are evil you will be punished. If your works are good then you will have rewards,

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Again Jesus states that those who overcome will move along in the spiritual realm. They may come back and rule nations with power. But then Jesus says something quite amazing. He says that they (the ones that overcome) shall rule over nations with a rod of iron. With that power they will break the vessels. This apparently means that the people who rule over the nations will bring tribulation to the nations. But then Christ says “even as I received of my Father” This implies that Father had a hand in organizing the stage for the tribulation that was experienced by His Son.

More to follow. Have you seen yet the interpretation of grace as defined by man?

[_Albion]

Paul clearly underlines his teaching that justification to salvation comes by faither and not by works of the law in his letter to the Galatians, a church rife with the legalistic teaching of the Judaizers who were undermining his teaching.

" I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died in vain." Gal. 2:21

"You foolish Galatians. Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you. Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing...if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, OR BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU HAVE HEARD?" GAL. 3:1-5

"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed." GAL. 3:13

"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed." GAL. 3:23

"So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified (fully clean and accepted before God) by faith. Now that faith has come, we are noi longer under the supervision of the law. GAL. 3:24-25