The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A Biblical Approach

[_jordon3]

The god of Mormonism is one of many gods.........The Christian God is only ONE
The god of Mormonism is NOT self-existent.........The Christian God IS self-existent..
The god of Mormonism is NOT transcendent .........The Christian God IS transcendent
The god of Mormonism is NOT immutable......... The Christian God IS immutable.
The god of Mormonism is NOT eternally God........... The Christian God IS eternally God
The god of Mormonism is NOT incorporeal......... The Christian God IS incorporeal.
The god of Mormonism is NOT omnipresent.......... The Christian God IS omnipresent.
The god of Mormonism cannot dwell in the believer......The God of Christianity DOES dwell in believers
The god of Mormonism is NOT omnipotent..............The Christian God IS omnipotent
The god of Mormonism does not forgive completely.........The Christian God DOES forgive completely

Does this look like the Christian God and the Mormon God are the same God?........Oh my,

[_Tobin]

This thread is very humorous. Apparently if you leave Jason15 alone by himself, he'll argue with himself.

[_jordon3]

This thread is very humorous. Apparently if you leave Jason15 alone by himself, he'll argue with himself.

HUH? my buddy Megs asked two specific questions and I answered both, Sheesh.....I get s*** when I don't answer and now I am getting crap for answering, His questions were not exactly one word answers. Ah I know you were just havin fun Tobin...your a good egg.

[_Megacles]

That standard for Christians is expressed in the Nicene-Constantinople creed.

Madeleine,

Thank you for taking the time to comment here.

Two questions for you, Madeleine:
Where are any of the creeds found in the Bible?
Where, in the Bible, does it say abiding by 4th or 5th century creeds is necessary to be a Christian?

2) Mormons believe in the plurality of Gods
4) Plurality of Gods makes it illogical for God (singular) to be almighty.

We believe there is one God the Father, one son of God (Jesus Christ), and one Holy Spirit. The Bible supports this. For example, at Jesus' baptism, the holy spirit descended like a dove from the sky. Did Jesus descend upon himself? God's voice spoke to Jesus and John as well, saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matt 3:17). Was Jesus speaking to himself? The same situation is on the cross, where Jesus asks His Father to "forgive them, for they know not what they do." Was he speaking to himself?

5) Mormons do not believe God created all things, they believe Gods made from existing matter.

That's correct, but the Bible doesn't say that such a belief would exclude a faith group from being Christian.

9) Begotten here, for a Christian, has a completely different meaning than Mormon. Whether it's Young's claim of intercourse and a resulting demi-God, or some who believe today that there was some sort of artificial insemination. Both of these ideas are far, far, far, far outside of Christianity.

The church takes no stance on the matter, what you are citing above has been speculation. The Bible does not say a particular belief about it decides whether one is Christian or not.

10) Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a spirit child of the father, which implies Jesus came to exist.

Mormons believe we are all spirit children of the Father, yes. Again, where in the Bible does it say that this must be a belief for one to be called Christian?

12) On the one hand, Mormon teaching is that Jesus had to gain a body in order to become exalted (just like everyone else), while at the same time, Mormon teaching is that Jesus has always been divine. Two contradictory teachings that maybe someone else can explain. Either way, Mormon teaching is that God BECOMES (eternal progression), while Christian teaching is that God IS ("I AM").

I am going to again quote Robert Millet here

That God was once a mortal being is in no way inconsistent with the fact that he now has all power and all knowledge and possesses every virtue, grace, and godly attribute. He acquired perfection through long periods of growth, development, and progression

So, you are correct. But again, where in the Bible does it state that this belief should exclude a particular faith group from being Christian?

14) Again, pre-existing matter is a problem. ALL things, means ALL things. There is no Biblical basis for something made/created that was not made/created by God, or just happened to exist.

In Blake Ostler's paper Out of Nothing: A History of Creation Ex Nihilo in Early Christian Thought, he notes that this idea of creation from nothing didn't emerge until well into the second century CE "with the adoption of a Middle Platonic view of God and matter ...[/quote] (p.19).

I would argue that there is no biblical basis for creation ex nihilo.

33) Mormon teaching forbids worship of the Son and the Holy Spirit

This is not correct. We worship Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. We worship Him every Sunday.

39) Mormons reject Christian baptism

Our baptism is Christian.

[_Megacles]

Christ clearly taught there is one God:

Mark 12:29-32

King James Version (KJV)

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

The LDS Church have historically taught in more than one God. This being the case, the LDS Church teaches contrary to the teachings of Christ. Hence, not logically a "Christian" Church.

sr

The nature of God is complicated for both traditional Christians and for LDS Christians.

We believe there is one God, one son/savior, and one holy spirit, just as traditional Christians do. We believe they are separate beings, and one in purpose. In my response to Madeleine, I laid out some logic for this: who was Jesus talking to on the cross when he asked the Father to forgive the Romans, for they know now what they do?

[_huckelberry]

The nature of God is complicated for both traditional Christians and for LDS Christians.

We believe there is one God, one son/savior, and one holy spirit, just as traditional Christians do. We believe they are separate beings, and one in purpose. In my response to Madeleine, I laid out some logic for this: who was Jesus talking to on the cross when he asked the Father to forgive the Romans, for they know now what they do?

Megales, I am not aware of any traditional trinitarian believers who would think any different than that the Son was speaking to the father on the cross. That is a fundamental meaning to the idea of different persons.

I think you are correct that ideas about the relationship and unity between Father Son and Spirit are neither simple or finalized for either Mormons or traditional creedal believers. The creeds present some general ideas which have been understood with variation by different people and different times.

Maybe I am mistaken but my general impression is that traditional Christians worried about Mormon beliefs are not primarily worried by the LDS view of what establishes the difference in persons in the trinity seen unified in purpose. Does anybody understand that? Do Mormons have any sort of agreement about this? On Zlmb there was a lengthy discussion from an investigator who thought LDS were all actually Trinitarians. He did not convince the Mormons and himself became Catholic instead of Mormon. I though he had some good points. After all I have difficulty seeing how true unity of purpose could exist with out essential unity.

I doubt the Trinity itself is the main point of disagreement as much as that crowd of other Gods before our Trinity, progenitors which would include wives and grandmothers and Well maybe none of those persons. Who knows what Mormons teach about such Gods.? I know what I was taught but have read that it is all open to disavowal.

[_jordon3]

[quote][/quote]The nature of God is complicated for both traditional Christians and for LDS Christians.

We believe there is one God, one son/savior, and one holy spirit, just as traditional Christians do. We believe they are separate beings, and one in purpose. In my response to Madeleine, I laid out some logic for this: who was Jesus talking to on the cross when he asked the Father to forgive the Romans, for they know now what they do?[quote]

Yes I agree Megs that the nature of God is awesome but for traditional Christians it is not complicated. We can have an understanding of God's nature, a "working definition", and that is all we really need. God tells us about Himself in the Bible and He came in person and showed us what He is like in the person of Jesus Christ.

Even if you think the nature of God is complicated for both traditional Christians and LDS.........and I don't disagree with this statement. This does not "negate" the fact that the Christian God is the "total antithesis" of the Mormon god

[_madeleine]

That standard for Christians is expressed in the Nicene-Constantinople creed.

Madeleine,

Thank you for taking the time to comment here.

Two questions for you, Madeleine:
Where are any of the creeds found in the Bible?
Where, in the Bible, does it say abiding by 4th or 5th century creeds is necessary to be a Christian?

2) Mormons believe in the plurality of Gods
4) Plurality of Gods makes it illogical for God (singular) to be almighty.

We believe there is one God the Father, one son of God (Jesus Christ), and one Holy Spirit. The Bible supports this. For example, at Jesus' baptism, the holy spirit descended like a dove from the sky. Did Jesus descend upon himself? God's voice spoke to Jesus and John as well, saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matt 3:17). Was Jesus speaking to himself? The same situation is on the cross, where Jesus asks His Father to "forgive them, for they know not what they do." Was he speaking to himself?

5) Mormons do not believe God created all things, they believe Gods made from existing matter.

That's correct, but the Bible doesn't say that such a belief would exclude a faith group from being Christian.

9) Begotten here, for a Christian, has a completely different meaning than Mormon. Whether it's Young's claim of intercourse and a resulting demi-God, or some who believe today that there was some sort of artificial insemination. Both of these ideas are far, far, far, far outside of Christianity.

The church takes no stance on the matter, what you are citing above has been speculation. The Bible does not say a particular belief about it decides whether one is Christian or not.

10) Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a spirit child of the father, which implies Jesus came to exist.

Mormons believe we are all spirit children of the Father, yes. Again, where in the Bible does it say that this must be a belief for one to be called Christian?

12) On the one hand, Mormon teaching is that Jesus had to gain a body in order to become exalted (just like everyone else), while at the same time, Mormon teaching is that Jesus has always been divine. Two contradictory teachings that maybe someone else can explain. Either way, Mormon teaching is that God BECOMES (eternal progression), while Christian teaching is that God IS ("I AM").

I am going to again quote Robert Millet here

That God was once a mortal being is in no way inconsistent with the fact that he now has all power and all knowledge and possesses every virtue, grace, and godly attribute. He acquired perfection through long periods of growth, development, and progression

So, you are correct. But again, where in the Bible does it state that this belief should exclude a particular faith group from being Christian?

14) Again, pre-existing matter is a problem. ALL things, means ALL things. There is no Biblical basis for something made/created that was not made/created by God, or just happened to exist.

In Blake Ostler's paper Out of Nothing: A History of Creation Ex Nihilo in Early Christian Thought, he notes that this idea of creation from nothing didn't emerge until well into the second century CE "with the adoption of a Middle Platonic view of God and matter ...

(p.19).

I would argue that there is no biblical basis for creation ex nihilo.

33) Mormon teaching forbids worship of the Son and the Holy Spirit

This is not correct. We worship Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. We worship Him every Sunday.

39) Mormons reject Christian baptism

Our baptism is Christian.[/quote]

A few points.

- I gave scriptural reference for every doctrine of belief in the Nicene creed. Your response re: of fourth or fifth century seems to me something learned, and repeated. Not addressing the very thing you request.

- The response you give several times, paraphrasing, that because the Bible does not explicitly deny something, means, anything goes.....I can only wonder why you bother asking about Bible references at all? Anything goes, unless and until you are denied? The Bible is a tool to determine what you can get away with? I prefer to follow what is revealed. God has revealed Himself as ONE. God has revealed himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

- Redefining Christian terms and words, and then claiming there is the same belief, is sophistry, which doesn't fool anyone.

- Baptism is a key doctrine. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.If Mormons are of the same faith as Christians, there would be no need for Mormons to "convert" Christians, or to rebaptize us, yet Mormons do both. A Mormon baptism is just that, a Mormon baptism.

[_jordon3]

Megacles I feel that you are telling ahalf truth with your statement "We believe there is one God, one son/savior, and one holy spirit, just as traditional Christians do"


When you state Mormons believe there is one God, it screams half truth in my opinion. Your statement just as traditional Christians dois completely out of line and false.

To reiterate you made the statement that Mormons believe in one God. If the question is do Mormons worship more than one God, the answer is a definitive “no”. If the question is do Mormons believe more than one god exists, the answer is “yes”. Neither question was asked....you volunteered that Mormons believe in on God etc. If I didn't now anything about Mormonism I would think it was monotheistic from your statement. This is called a missionary door knocking half truth.

If Mormons believe that multiple gods exist, but they only worship one of them as God, does that mean Mormons are polytheists or that Mormonism is a form of polytheism?

Traditional Christians are Monotheists....there is only one God in existence, always has been and always will be. Again the antithesis of Mormonism.

[_sr1030]

The nature of God is complicated for both traditional Christians and for LDS Christians.

That doesn't help your view in the least.

We believe there is one God, one son/savior, and one holy spirit, just as traditional Christians do.

You should not have said this. It is completely false. LDS believe in many Gods. This is evident through their historical teachings. Do you really want quotes? You already know this and I don't understand why you would say something so patently false.

And you did not represent traditional Christians either. They believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as One God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, One God. Not at all like LDS.

We believe they are separate beings, and one in purpose. In my response to Madeleine, I laid out some logic for this: who was Jesus talking to on the cross when he asked the Father to forgive the Romans, for they know now what they do?

Who was Christ talking to? You have degraded to an elementary discussion which I am not interested in with this question.

sr