Restoration of the Gospel

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_subgenius
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Re: Restoration of the Gospel

Post by _subgenius »

sr1030 wrote:1) What did the Book of Mormon restore?

"The re-establishment of the ancient church and gospel of Jesus Christ in the latter days as revealed by God through Joseph Smith and the prophets who have succeeded him as president of the Church. The term “restored gospel” is used to emphasize its restoration from New Testament times."

sr1030 wrote:2) The Book of Mormon claim is that without a complete apostacy on the part of the church, there would be no need for a restoration. This makes logical sense to me. So what was lost? I personally see that the church was here during the first 19 centuries, therefore at most a reformation may have been required, but certainly not a restoration.

"When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth."
The idea that only a "reformation" is necessary is part of the problem....one cannot merely make a silk purse from a sow's ear.


sr1030 wrote:3) the claim is that the creeds of the then existing churches were an abomination. Can a church whose creeds are an abomination be considered a Christian church?

sr

No, not really.
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_The Erotic Apologist
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Re: Restoration of the Gospel

Post by _The Erotic Apologist »

Bazooka wrote:The EA,

The new Pope is proving to be remarkable in that he preaches do as I do.
General Authorities in the Mormon Church tend to preach do as I say.

True dat!
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_LittleNipper
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Re: Restoration of the Gospel

Post by _LittleNipper »

The Erotic Apologist wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:I would say that Martin Luther was a man who was highly emotional with regards to seeking to biblically save souls. Martin Luther saw non-acceptance of Christ, as the Messiah, as the manipulative work of Satan. And as such believed, and rightly so, that the unsaved Jew is living a lie and fully accepting traditions that are (of themselves) unable to save anyone. Luther saw that the Jew was without excuse with regard to the prophetic message of Christ found throughout the Old Testament. But, just like the Mormon, corrupted the Gospel message --- taking the focus off the Savior and redirected it towards keeping empty traditions, and exhorting prophets and personal philanthropy. Some Lutheran bodies also promote gay marriage. They have assumed the role of social clubs and have relieved themselves of the embarrassment the Gospel message brings with it. That embarrassment is that not everyone is saved and not all beliefs lead to heaven. It is faith in Jesus Christ plus NOTHING. And that leaves a lot of people out ---- including some Lutherians.


Nipper, what you're doing is called cherry picking.

In other words, you're focusing solely on Martin Luther's evangelical zeal while purposely ignoring the fact that his anti-Semitism helped lay the foundation for the Holocaust.

This is similar to those old, unrepentant Nazis who ignore the Holocaust and say Hitler should be praised because he solved Germany's unemployment crisis and made the trains run on time.

Nipper, do you agree with Martin Luther that the Jews should be punished?

Actually, there is more consideration that scientific research surrounding atheistic evolution and the glorification of a supposed superior hybrid race were the underlying factors of the Holocaust. There is enough data to suggest that the mass murder of humans was promoted as a means to weed out the "weak inferior races" and not save souls. In other words, the Nazis were attempting to save themselves in a material world without consideration of the next.
_The Erotic Apologist
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Re: Restoration of the Gospel

Post by _The Erotic Apologist »

LittleNipper wrote:Actually, there is more consideration that scientific research surrounding atheistic evolution and the glorification of a supposed superior hybrid race were the underlying factors of the Holocaust.
Yes, the Nazis used the Theory of Evolution and the eugenics movement in America to justify their actions.


LittleNipper wrote:There is enough data to suggest that the mass murder of humans was promoted as a means to weed out the "weak inferior races" and not save souls.
Yes, the Nazis cited the supposed inferiority of other races to justify the Holocaust.


LittleNipper wrote:In other words, the Nazis were attempting to save themselves in a material world without consideration of the next.
Yes, the Nazis saw themselves as trying to save the Aryan race in a struggle with inferior races, and with Bolshevist atheism. You're mistaken if you believe the Nazis were atheists--they weren't. In fact, many Nazis believed they were fighting against atheism. For them, the swastika was as much a religious symbol and a secular symbol.


Nipper, you're still cherry picking.

In other words, you're purposely ignoring the "major and persistent influence" that Martin Luther's anti-Semitic writings exerted on the Nazis.

You're purposely ignoring that fact that Martin Luther is a big reason why the Holocaust occurred in Germany, and not somewhere else like France or Italy.

You're also ignoring the questions I asked in an earlier post:

  • Was Martin Luther a man of god in spite of his anti-Semitism?
  • Or, was Martin Luther a man of god because of his anti-Semitism?
Surprise, surprise, there is no divine mandate for the Church to discuss and portray its history accurately.
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_LittleNipper
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Re: Restoration of the Gospel

Post by _LittleNipper »

The Erotic Apologist wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:Actually, there is more consideration that scientific research surrounding atheistic evolution and the glorification of a supposed superior hybrid race were the underlying factors of the Holocaust.
Yes, the Nazis used the Theory of Evolution and the eugenics movement in America to justify their actions.


LittleNipper wrote:There is enough data to suggest that the mass murder of humans was promoted as a means to weed out the "weak inferior races" and not save souls.
Yes, the Nazis cited the supposed inferiority of other races to justify the Holocaust.


LittleNipper wrote:In other words, the Nazis were attempting to save themselves in a material world without consideration of the next.
Yes, the Nazis saw themselves as trying to save the Aryan race in a struggle with inferior races, and with Bolshevist atheism. You're mistaken if you believe the Nazis were atheists--they weren't. In fact, many Nazis believed they were fighting against atheism. For them, the swastika was as much a religious symbol and a secular symbol.


Nipper, you're still cherry picking.

In other words, you're purposely ignoring the "major and persistent influence" that Martin Luther's anti-Semitic writings exerted on the Nazis.

You're purposely ignoring that fact that Martin Luther is a big reason why the Holocaust occurred in Germany, and not somewhere else like France or Italy.

You're also ignoring the questions I asked in an earlier post:

  • Was Martin Luther a man of god in spite of his anti-Semitism?
  • Or, was Martin Luther a man of god because of his anti-Semitism?
I do not believe Martin Luther was a true anti-Semite, nor were his writings truly anti-sematic. Martin Luther was a Christian and as such saw that ALL beliefs that did not have Christ as their foundation or core to be of little eternal value. He would have seen Hitler as a despot and one pointing people towards HELL. I am sure Martin Luther would have welcomed a "Christian Jew" into his own home, as well as one looking to learn more about Christ. He likely would have helped Jews escape (though I'm as sure, he would have witnessed about Jesus Christ the Messiah/Savior to them along the way. In fact, Martin Luther would likely have welcomed any Roman Catholic priest into his home who was seeking the same. I mean, Martin Luther did marry a former nun. And I would have to say that Martin Luther had very little to do with how Jews were treated in Russia... The Bible is very blunt as to why Jews were treated the way they were. They had left God, rejected the Messiah, and clung to TRADITION.
_The Erotic Apologist
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Re: Restoration of the Gospel

Post by _The Erotic Apologist »

LittleNipper wrote:I do not believe Martin Luther was a true anti-Semite, nor were his writings truly anti-sematic.
Thank you for admitting that this is only a matter of belief on your part, and not a matter of fact.


LittleNipper wrote:Martin Luther was a Christian and as such saw that ALL beliefs that did not have Christ as their foundation or core to be of little eternal value.
Which is why he wanted to kill all the Jews who refused to convert to Christianity. What about you, Nipper? Do you want to kill everybody who won't convert to Christianity? Or do you only want to kill Jews who won't convert to Christianity?


LittleNipper wrote:He would have seen Hitler as a despot and one pointing people towards HELL.
No--Martin Luther's and Adolf Hitler's beliefs differed only insofar as Hitler saw Jews as their own race.


LittleNipper wrote:I am sure Martin Luther would have welcomed a "Christian Jew" into his own home, as well as one looking to learn more about Christ.
No--in Martin Luther's world view, there is no such thing as a "Christian Jew."


LittleNipper wrote:He likely would have helped Jews escape (though I'm as sure, he would have witnessed about Jesus Christ the Messiah/Savior to them along the way. In fact, Martin Luther would likely have welcomed any Roman Catholic priest into his home who was seeking the same. I mean, Martin Luther did marry a former nun.
Nipper, you really need to sit down and read On the Jews and Their Lies. Seriously, take a couple hours and read it start to finish. You don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.


LittleNipper wrote:And I would have to say that Martin Luther had very little to do with how Jews were treated in Russia...
The Holocaust occurred in Germany, and in territories captured by the Germans, not Russia.


LittleNipper wrote:The Bible is very blunt as to why Jews were treated the way they were. They had left God, rejected the Messiah, and clung to TRADITION.
So you agree with Martin Luther that Jews should be put to death if they refuse to become Christians? If you do you are sick, Nipper. You are seriously sick. Get help. Get help soon.
Surprise, surprise, there is no divine mandate for the Church to discuss and portray its history accurately.
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I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess.
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_LittleNipper
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Re: Restoration of the Gospel

Post by _LittleNipper »

The Erotic Apologist wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:I do not believe Martin Luther was a true anti-Semite, nor were his writings truly anti-sematic.
Thank you for admitting that this is only a matter of belief on your part, and not a matter of fact.


LittleNipper wrote:Martin Luther was a Christian and as such saw that ALL beliefs that did not have Christ as their foundation or core to be of little eternal value.
Which is why he wanted to kill all the Jews who refused to convert to Christianity. What about you, Nipper? Do you want to kill everybody who won't convert to Christianity? Or do you only want to kill Jews who won't convert to Christianity?


LittleNipper wrote:He would have seen Hitler as a despot and one pointing people towards HELL.
No--Martin Luther's and Adolf Hitler's beliefs differed only insofar as Hitler saw Jews as their own race.


LittleNipper wrote:I am sure Martin Luther would have welcomed a "Christian Jew" into his own home, as well as one looking to learn more about Christ.
No--in Martin Luther's world view, there is no such thing as a "Christian Jew."


LittleNipper wrote:He likely would have helped Jews escape (though I'm as sure, he would have witnessed about Jesus Christ the Messiah/Savior to them along the way. In fact, Martin Luther would likely have welcomed any Roman Catholic priest into his home who was seeking the same. I mean, Martin Luther did marry a former nun.
Nipper, you really need to sit down and read On the Jews and Their Lies. Seriously, take a couple hours and read it start to finish. You don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.


LittleNipper wrote:And I would have to say that Martin Luther had very little to do with how Jews were treated in Russia...
The Holocaust occurred in Germany, and in territories captured by the Germans, not Russia.


LittleNipper wrote:The Bible is very blunt as to why Jews were treated the way they were. They had left God, rejected the Messiah, and clung to TRADITION.
So you agree with Martin Luther that Jews should be put to death if they refuse to become Christians? If you do you are sick, Nipper. You are seriously sick. Get help. Get help soon.

I have stated that I feel that Martin Luther was a human, and had weaknesses just like everyone else. I also believe that you are looking at his writings totally out of context and with the eyes of one clouded by gay marriage and abortion rights smothered with Nazi propaganda. Martin Luther lived at a different time and the world of his day was controlled by the Pope for the most part the Nazis believed that Jews were a race. Martin Luther would see the Jew from the aspect of one's religious beliefs only. As such, Luther saw the corruption of the Old Testament by the rabbinical interpretations and the confusion they brought along with them regarding the Bible. If I were to say, "You make me sick!" it would have nothing to do with becoming ill. It would have to do with you being a rake. That does not mean that you are to be found in a tool shed, it simply means that you like to stir things up and create mischief as a means of fun... I feel that Martin Luther was practicing unbridled freedom of speech unlike today. Was Luther correct? I have to agree on much of what he said. Could he have been more diplomatic? Yes, I feel he could have been. Do Jews that do not accept Jesus as the Messiah go to hell? Frankly, I have to believe so --- as with anyone else. They do not even sacrifice as they were told they MUST to even be accepted according to Old Testament standards --- which I might add were only an outward sign of a supposed inward love of God and acceptance of Mercy/Salvation from God ALONE.
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Re: Restoration of the Gospel

Post by _The Erotic Apologist »

LittleNipper wrote:I have stated that I feel that Martin Luther was a human, and had weaknesses just like everyone else.
True-believing Mormons say the same thing when they try to excuse Joseph Smith's excesses...but Joseph Smith wasn't a violent anti-Semite, and he wasn't a Nazi, either.


LittleNipper wrote:I also believe that you are looking at his writings totally out of context and with the eyes of one clouded by gay marriage and abortion rights smothered with Nazi propaganda.
No--Martin Luther was an anti-Semite long before the Nazis showed up, and long before gay rights and abortion became an issue. Those are entirely separate matters. Stop trying to muddy the water.


LittleNipper wrote:Martin Luther lived at a different time and the world of his day was controlled by the Pope for the most part the Nazis believed that Jews were a race. Martin Luther would see the Jew from the aspect of one's religious beliefs only.
Completely irrelevant--again, you're simply trying to muddy the water. Nipper, you really need to sit down and read On the Jews and their Lies. And you need to stay on your meds.


LittleNipper wrote:As such, Luther saw the corruption of the Old Testament by the rabbinical interpretations and the confusion they brought along with them regarding the Bible.
Yeah, and Luther's solution to the problem was to call for the Jews to be put to death if they wouldn't convert to Christianity. Yeah, I got that. We've been over all of this already.


LittleNipper wrote:If I were to say, "You make me sick!" it would have nothing to do with becoming ill. It would have to do with you being a rake. That does not mean that you are to be found in a tool shed, it simply means that you like to stir things up and create mischief as a means of fun...
You mean Luther was only trying to have fun when he called for the mass slaughter of Jews who wouldn't join Jesus' fan club? You sound confused, Nipper, very confused.


LittleNipper wrote:I feel that Martin Luther was practicing unbridled freedom of speech unlike today.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Stop! Too funny! :lol: :lol: :lol: Yer killin' me! :lol: :lol: :lol: And I'm not even Jewish! :lol: :lol: :lol:


LittleNipper wrote:Was Luther correct?
No, and neither are you, Nipper.


LittleNipper wrote:I have to agree on much of what he said.
Yeah, that's becoming very clear--you think it's a good idea to say you want to kill people who won't convert to Christianity. Sick! Sick! Sick!


LittleNipper wrote:Could he have been more diplomatic? Yes, I feel he could have been.
Yeah, like the Nazis, who at least played nice, relaxing music for the Jews to listen to as they were herded into the gas chamber. Yeah, Luther should have been nice, like the Nazis.


LittleNipper wrote:Do Jews that do not accept Jesus as the Messiah go to hell? Frankly, I have to believe so --- as with anyone else. They do not even sacrifice as they were told they MUST to even be accepted according to Old Testament standards --- which I might add were only an outward sign of a supposed inward love of God and acceptance of Mercy/Salvation from God ALONE.
Yeah, which is why Martin Luther (and you) think it's a good idea to kill Jews who don't accept Christ. Like I said, we've been over this. Seek help, Nipper. Seek help, soon.

One more thing, Nipper--"Seek help!" and "Seig Heil!" might sound alike, but they're totally different.
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I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess.
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_huckelberry
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Re: Restoration of the Gospel

Post by _huckelberry »

Nipper,I do not think the Erotic Apologist is correct in everything he says but he has a serious concern here. I cannot see how he could be just playing to stir up mischief. The history of Christian treatment of the Jews is one of profound sin which has corrupted the the Body of Christ. Why is Luther driving people to great sin? Perhaps one could ask which is a more serious sin, murdering or abusing Jews or Jews fearing Christianity out of respect for the God of the Bible and fear of Christians.
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Re: Restoration of the Gospel

Post by _The Erotic Apologist »

huckelberry wrote:Nipper,I do not think the Erotic Apologist is correct in everything he says but he has a serious concern here. I cannot see how he could be just playing to stir up mischief. The history of Christian treatment of the Jews is one of profound sin which has corrupted the the Body of Christ. Why is Luther driving people to great sin? Perhaps one could ask which is a more serious sin, murdering or abusing Jews or Jews fearing Christianity out of respect for the God of the Bible and fear of Christians.

I'd call that a reasonable summary of the point I'm trying to get across, minus the hyperbole and drama.
Surprise, surprise, there is no divine mandate for the Church to discuss and portray its history accurately.
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I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess.
--Han Solo, from William Shakespeare's Star Wars
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