marquis de sade

[_subgenius]

I note subby, has not yet been able to answer his own question posed in the OP....

Still nothing

to ask and answer my own question makes the thread exercise seem rather wasteful...the reason i asked the question in the OP was as a point of discussion...discussing the matter with myself puts me in the rather intellectual masturbatory position that is so popular with critics of the church....granted, they enjoy a more exhibitionist aspect by displaying such behavior across threads such as these and with posts such as yours....but i do appreciate that once again you want to derail the thread by focusing on my answer rather than your own.

Feel free to resolve the OP reference with the same vigor we all see you resolve hieroglyphic knives.

[_subgenius]

Does "God" necessarily have to be a supernatural being in order to exert a moral force on individuals?

pretty good question!

So now i think we have to define supernatural and natural.

Is supernatural not really super? Is it just the unknown.?

so to answer your question. No, it can and is natural and not supernatural.

supernatural being known or unknown is irrelevant...supernatural is recognition that there are natural laws in our lives and/or the universe. The supernatural would be anything that can transcend these laws - whether it be known yet or unknown forever.
Supernatural is by its definition intended to be distinct from somehting that is simply "unknown"

supernatural adj.
1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3. Of or relating to a deity.
4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5. Of or relating to the miraculous.

[_subgenius]

...(snip)...Is supernatural not really super? Is it just the unknown.?

so to answer your question. No, it can and is natural and not supernatural.

consider this also:
if you are simply a walking bag of chemical reactions then there are laws that govern those reactions and thus everything that is a product of those reactions is incapable of being any other type of product.
Choice would be an illusion because it would have to be the predictable result of any series of reactions...regardless of the complexity...regardless of whether you "knew" how these reactions worked or even when they worked...the point being, they are bound to the laws that govern them...they behave no other way....water cannot choose to become gold....water cannot chose to become ice or steam.
So, in order for a human being to have the ability to "choose otherwise" the supernatural must exist...otherwise such a choice cannot exist.
so you decide...are you responsible for your own thoughts and actions? or are you simply a walking bag of chemicals? living a delusion and only knowing what is real when your brain tells you it is real.....and there could not possibly be you to begin with...you would be an illusion created by your brain for some "unknown" reason.

Me, i think good reason and good argument conclude only with the truth of there being a supernatural because the ability to choose otherwise is real.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

pretty good question!

So now i think we have to define supernatural and natural.

Is supernatural not really super? Is it just the unknown.?

so to answer your question. No, it can and is natural and not supernatural.

Can I interpret this to mean that "God" does not exist outside of nature?

Is "God" therefore a natural phenomenon, like a super-advanced alien being?

Is "God" therefore subject to all the same physical laws and limitations that we are?

[_SteelHead]

Sub,
Can one choose to violate the law of gravity?

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Sub,
Can one choose to violate the law of gravity?

I'll give you ten to one odds that subby will deny the existence of gravity.

[_Molok]

Without God, morals are subjective... Nature is propagation and consumption.

"Thou shalt not kill."

*Murders everyone on the planet with a flood*

Tell me again about how absolute God's morals are.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Without God, morals are subjective... Nature is propagation and consumption.

"Thou shalt not kill."

*Murders everyone on the planet with a flood*

Tell me again about how absolute God's morals are.

Jealousy is a sin.

"God" is a jealous god.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[_Quasimodo]

Jealousy is a sin.

"God" is a jealous god.

Makes perfect sense to me.

God tells Abraham to kill his only son Isaac. He took Isaac to the mountain, tied him up and placed him on an alter. Just before he killed him, God said "Hey, just kidding. This was a test and only a test. Pretty funny, huh?".

Gotta love God's sense of humor.

[_subgenius]

Sub,
Can one choose to violate the law of gravity?

not that i am aware of, at least in the sense i believe you intend.
But i never stated that our ability to choose otherwise was without bounds. There is no reason for me to believe that my conscious being, my soul, must be completely unfettered in order to be of the supernatural.

That being said...i have never observed nor "heard" about any thoughts or ideas that fell to the ground, or that needed a tether to prevent drifting into the troposphere....you?