Testimonies of other faiths

[_Gunnar]

I don't think that you can suggest spiritual discernment is a reliable method of determining an absolute.

If you still think that subgenius can't or won't suggest that, you don't yet know him very well! Certainly he can't credibly suggest that (which is probably what you meant).

The OP shows us that.

Not only does the OP clearly show us that, but the replies attempting to refute it only managed to effectively and collectively, though inadvertently, further reinforce that conclusion. It never fails to amuse me how oblivious those attempting to refute it can be to the fact they are consistently "shooting themselves (or, at least, each other) in the foot."

This is far from the first thread on this forum to point out the abysmal unreliability and inconsistency of so called "spiritual discernment", nor, I predict, will it be the last.

[_CurrentlyAlive]

Yet others feel the same about their religion...they can't all be right.

why not? It is perfectly reasonable for them to be correct, just as I am correct when I proclaim that my wife is the best wife ever.....because it is true, if you loved her as your wife you would agree.
This notion that "if they all can't be right then they all must be wrong" is juvenile. It is quite possible, and more likely, that at least one is correct....your inability to discern that does not make it any less true.

Now, you might say, that's not what the feeling they experienced actually meant, it's just how they interpreted it. And I'd agree with you if you said that.

I am not saying that.

So, how do you know if your experience is the correct one? People sometimes have spiritual experiences that lead them to clearly contradictory beliefs. I think we sometimes ignore specifics when we discuss this stuff.

For example, here's a Baha'i testimony from Testimonies of Other Faiths:
(http://testimoniesofotherfaiths.blogspo ... ences.html)

"Instead of going straight to bed I sat at the kitchen table and, just out of curiosity, opened the little red book and began to read a few lines. Then another strange thing happened. It was as though someone hit me gently, but firmly, on the top of the head with a huge rubber mallet. I had the feeling of waking up, as if all my previous life I had been asleep. The printed words on the page of the book seemed like the surface of a vast and fathomless ocean of truth and wisdom. Whatever it was, I knew that it was completely true and infallible. Therefore the author must also be true and infallible. The small red book, which I still have, was The Hidden Words.
...I began sharing my new Faith with friends... During the conversation one of my companions asked me what the name of the Founder of the Faith was. I told him, and as the word came out of my mouth I had the sensation of something descending and enveloping me. I felt like I was in a little spiritual bubble all of my own surrounded by joy and light."

This guy now believes that everything Bahá’u’lláh wrote is absolute truth because of his spiritual experiences. You probably won't have to dig far to find things Bahá’u’lláh wrote that contradict LDS doctrine.

[Guest]

Either i love my wife or i do not...as with you and your wife...correct? The wife is not the point, the love is...analogy valid. Love is an absolute condition.

The belief that you love your wife is not contradictory with the belief that I love my wife. Therefore a false analogy.

OK...no

That's what it means for most TBMs.

why not? It is perfectly reasonable for them to be correct, just as I am correct when I proclaim that my wife is the best wife ever.....because it is true, if you loved her as your wife you would agree.
This notion that "if they all can't be right then they all must be wrong" is juvenile. It is quite possible, and more likely, that at least one is correct....your inability to discern that does not make it any less true.

Gibberish.

How can you know that your feeling is correct as opposed to someone else's?

I am not saying that.

Clearly, but you should be based on your other responses, otherwise your overall message makes no sense.

[_CurrentlyAlive]

On a very related notes, this thread links to a really interesting survey. People who had prayed to know which church was true give their answers from God:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36204

Here's the survey link:
http://mostcorrectreligionsurvey.weebly.com/

[_huckelberry]

On a very related notes, this thread links to a really interesting survey. People who had prayed to know which church was true give their answers from God:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36204

Here's the survey link:
http://mostcorrectreligionsurvey.weebly.com/

or perhaps God is interested in calling people to an awareness of the spiritual dimension of our interconnectedness and responsibility for each other. People hear that in the context of their own understanding, the religious forms and images they are familiar with.

I am inclined to reject the view that because God is not busy giving people the answer to which church is right that God is not communicating to people. I do not think God is an answer box. I think instead he sometimes disrupts the ordinary to call people to look deeper.

[_subgenius]

The belief that you love your wife is not contradictory with the belief that I love my wife. Therefore a false analogy.

because the "love" is not contradictory is the point.

That's what it means for most TBMs.

So?

Gibberish.

How can you know that your feeling is correct as opposed to someone else's?

On this topic, to what end does this matter? If I know "my feeling" to be "true" then exactly how is it validated or invalidated by someone else's feeling?
And please do not distracted by bringing forth your own gibberish about test tube results...stay on this topic.

Clearly, but you should be based on your other responses, otherwise your overall message makes no sense.

and what message do you "feel" that this is ?

[_subgenius]

So, how do you know if your experience is the correct one? People sometimes have spiritual experiences that lead them to clearly contradictory beliefs. I think we sometimes ignore specifics when we discuss this stuff. ...(snip)...

Why do consider my beliefs to be subject to the confirmation of another person?
Is every spiritual truth, for you, beholden to the confirmation and validation from another person?
Do the scriptures require that a person's belief in God or in the truth of the Gospel be determined by another person?

I am really unsure what you are trying to promote here. Its like you found a black rock and a white rock and you seem to be saying that this "contradiction" calls into question the existence of rocks.

[_Amore]

"The kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you." - Luke 17:21

So, of course, each's experience of God is going to be unique, as is everything else we think and feel and experience individually.

[Guest]

So, how do you know if your experience is the correct one? People sometimes have spiritual experiences that lead them to clearly contradictory beliefs. I think we sometimes ignore specifics when we discuss this stuff. ...(snip)...

Why do consider my beliefs to be subject to the confirmation of another person?
Is every spiritual truth, for you, beholden to the confirmation and validation from another person?
Do the scriptures require that a person's belief in God or in the truth of the Gospel be determined by another person?

I am really unsure what you are trying to promote here. Its like you found a black rock and a white rock and you seem to be saying that this "contradiction" calls into question the existence of rocks.

I have always thought of truth as objective fact. To me, two contradictory objective facts cannot both be true. For example, the Catholic Church cannot be God's only true, recognized, and authorized Church on the face of the Earth if the LDS church is also God's only true, recognized, and authorized Church on the face of the Earth. Those two ideas cannot both be true.

On the website I linked to, there spiritual experiences that confirmed both of those ideas. I can think of some explanations that do not deny God's hand in these experiences.

Catholic:
http://testimoniesofotherfaiths.blogspo ... l/Catholic

Mormon:
http://testimoniesofotherfaiths.blogspo ... bel/Mormon

Here are my possible explanations that allow for genuine spiritual experiences from God:

A) The Catholic Church is true. The Catholic got a true answer, and the Mormon was deceived. The Catholic learned an objective truth.

B) The Mormon Church is true. The Mormon got the true answer, and the Catholic was deceived. The Mormon learned an objective truth.

C) The Catholic Church is the true church, but God allowed the Mormon to feel guided to Mormonism because it contains some truth. By participating in Mormonism, the Mormon will be benefited spiritually an accomplish what God wants him to do, even though Mormonism does not contain the full truth. The Mormon fully believes that his spiritual experience showed him that the Mormon Church has the full truth and authority on the earth, but he has simply misinterpreted what the spiritual experience meant. He will still be where God wants him by following the spiritual experience, and he will still be saved in the end. Perhaps Mormonism will be a stepping stone for him, and later God will lead him to further truth. In this case, the Mormon's spiritual experience did NOT actually show him objective truth, but it did benefit him, even though he was wrong about its meaning.

D) Vice versa of C. The Mormon Church is true, and the Catholic misinterpreted his experience, but will still be blessed. The Catholic did not learn objective truth.

E) Neither church is God's only true, recognized, and authorized Church on the face of the Earth. God is working through both of them, and the Spirit guided each person to a church that would bless his life. They both strongly believe that their spiritual experiences showed them their church is the only true church, which is not objectively true. This misinterpretation is unimportant to God, and both will be blessed. In this case, neither party learned an objective truth.

In all cases, however, both parties firmly believe that they have learned an objective truth. The case I CAN'T accept is to say that both people are correct, and that they both learned an objective truth- that their own church is the one and only true church. I'm OK with misinterpretation. I'm OK with saying one or more party is mistaken. But they CAN'T both be objectively correct!

[_CurrentlyAlive]

So, how do you know if your experience is the correct one? People sometimes have spiritual experiences that lead them to clearly contradictory beliefs. I think we sometimes ignore specifics when we discuss this stuff. ...(snip)...

Why do consider my beliefs to be subject to the confirmation of another person?
Is every spiritual truth, for you, beholden to the confirmation and validation from another person?

I believe that two contradicting statements can't both be objectively true. If they contradict, at least one has to be incorrect. Is a spiritual truth also an objective truth? Or, is there some other definition of truth for spiritual things?