Mormon Infobia...

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_Franktalk
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Franktalk »

ludwigm wrote:United States of America.

Do You disagree?


Oh come now. Just the issue of slavery is presented in many forms. The founding fathers are godly people in some books and others are seen as atheist. You can find what ever history you want. Just the other day the President said we have 57 States. I think he was thinking of catsup. He is an idiot. The world is filled with error.
_Franktalk
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Franktalk »

Drifting wrote:Wrong.
The Church has Prophets, Seers and Revelators who, on a weekly basis meet with Apostles and receive direct communication from Christ himself. Are you suggesting that isn't the case? Or that Christ has instructed them to withhold some stuff from the teaching manuals?


You are wrong. Somehow you assume that communication with Christ to a man is foolproof. Peter in just a few minutes went from praise to error. Christ said to him that the communication from the Father was what the church would be based on. Then shortly after Christ said that Peter was speaking for Satan. How can we raise any current Apostle above the Apostles who walked with Christ?

The crowd that was fed by the fishes and the loafs came again to Christ. But Christ said that they follow not for the word or the miracles but for food. Man is weak and man is driven by carnal things. If a crowd of 5000 can't see that the Son of God is standing before them and giving them a message then how are we to do any better. I find it amazing that almost every Christian I come across assumes that if Christ came today that they would know Him. Even in the case of Peter it was the Father who revealed who Christ was. Christ tells us so. So no I don't see this picture of perfection you wish to paint. Perfection is not something that fits into this fallen world. If Satan's ideas can enter Peter then they can invade us as well. That is why all things are tested against scripture.
_Drifting
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:
Drifting wrote:Wrong.
The Church has Prophets, Seers and Revelators who, on a weekly basis meet with Apostles and receive direct communication from Christ himself. Are you suggesting that isn't the case? Or that Christ has instructed them to withhold some stuff from the teaching manuals?


You are wrong. Somehow you assume that communication with Christ to a man is foolproof.


Wrong again.
I'm talking about communication with Prophets, not men.
I'm not assuming, I'm following the Church teaching that the Prophet cannot lead us astray. If the Prophet cannot be relied upon to receive Christs messages accurately where does that leave the Church?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_ldsfaqs
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _ldsfaqs »

Drifting wrote:I think Themis hits on the exact point.


No he doesn't....

The fact is that the Church pretends to be historically accurate in all of its teaching programmes: Primary, Sunday School, Seminary, Institute, Gospel Doctrine, Investigators.


The Church IS historically accurate..... What you don't understand is that there is a difference between being historically accurate and telling ALL history. More importantly, there is a difference between being historically accurate and telling the anti-mormon version of history.

You want the Church to teach anti-mormon history, and that is simply something it will never do.
As someone who's been a basic believer, and an anti-mormon, I know FOR SURE the Church is being honest in it's basic telling of history. It's your false assumptions and beliefs that are in error, not the Church.

The Church teaches the restoration of the Gospel as a historic event. It teaches specific historic elements such as the significant things that Joseph did, said or which happened to him. The infobia is evidenced by the things the Church leaves out of the materials of these teaching programmes.


The Church focuses on the history that relate to the "Restored Gospel".
It omits MANY things that ARE NOT even "problematic" or "questionable".....
Thus, your claim that it omits things simply because they might not look good, is false. The Church omits the irrelevant and anti-mormon views, no matter what it is.

The translation method of the Book of Mormon is one such example. The Church, when teaching about how it was translated, exclusively uses the Urim & Thummim method. Not only is that not the only method used, it's not the main method used to produce the Book of Mormon.


Actually, the most taught method by the Church is nothing at all. Sitting at a table with plates, and a scribe. The second method IS the Urim & Thummim, but what you don't realize is that the Urim & Thummim WAS the most dominant method otherwise, whether it was used with a breastplate, whether it was placed in the hat, whether the Sear Stone acted as the Urim & Thummim in the hat, etc. The "concept" of the Urim & Thummim WAS the most dominant method used, other than nothing at all.

The Church is being truthful.... I gave the link already to all the known accounts, and the vast majority point to the Urim & Thummim by whatever method.

The Church teaches about the historic practice of polygamy, but it doesn't teach an accurate history.


It teaches an accurate history based on what is known to actually BE ACCURATE, and especially as it relates to the Gospel. The Rumor Mill of "sex" etc. is not Gospel, and is historically valid enough to be emphasized as "true history" by a group.

The Church teaches about the historic events culminating in Joseph's death, leaving out specific but materially important elements of the tale.


The Church doesn't leave out anything important..... It tells the basic story of events.
Religious prejudice and bigotry killed a bunch of people. Bigots always have their "excuses" for hate. Still doesn't change the facts and truth.

The question is not wether or not the Church avoids teaching an accurate history - that much is conclusively proven.


The Church DOES teach an accurate history, and what is "conclusively proven" is that anti-mormons do not, but only think they do.

The question is why it doesn't? The Church has an article of faith exhorting people to be honest and true. Dallin Oaks has articulated honesty to include deliberately leaving bits of information out. I don't think it is wrong to expect the Church to lead by example.


Since the Church IS honest, your question is irrelevant...... What you don't understand is that it is YOU who are dishonest, who doesn't teach a full and true history. Having been you, I actually know this for sure.....
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_ldsfaqs
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _ldsfaqs »

Drifting wrote:Because this organisation claims to be Gods one true Church on the Earth today with the only correct form of Priesthood and doctrine, and more correct scripture. Not just another man made organization.

One wouldn't expect Gods true Church to be ripe with hoax and deliberate distortion, yet here we are...


Problem with your statement is that it's NOT "the Church" that is "ripe with hoax and deliberate distortion, it is YOU the anti-mormon.

The Church teaching a "basic" history is not hoax and distortion let alone deliberate distortion, any more than teaching children the basics of Noah's Flood is the same.

You falsely assume that because you as an anti-mormon know a little more than the average member, and more importantly have a "distorted version" of Mormonism, that it is actually YOU who have the actual truth. What you don't understand is that there is another level ABOVE YOU, which is the actual whole truth, and which actually confirms the Churches basic views, and not your views.
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_Franktalk
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Franktalk »

Drifting wrote:Wrong again.
I'm talking about communication with Prophets, not men.
I'm not assuming, I'm following the Church teaching that the Prophet cannot lead us astray. If the Prophet cannot be relied upon to receive Christs messages accurately where does that leave the Church?


A prophet of God can not lead someone astray. If indeed that man is a prophet and is speaking for God at that moment. Are you saying that a prophet never doubts? Are you saying a prophet never asks a question of God because they don't know? You must realize that the Bible is full of prophets who at one time or another had doubts or questions. In these times where they were seeking answers were they able to be a spokesman for God? In the history of the prophets they lived many years yet their writings only cover a few hours. What of the other time that they were not writing scripture? Would they be a man? And if so could they be weak like a man? Are you telling me that no prophet of God ever had a bad day? A bad week? Or even a bad year? In reading the Bible just how often does a prophet receive a message from God? Oh please look it up. Make a list of times in which they received a message and the times that the Lord was silent. Make a time line. You may be shocked to find out that the prophets were men and nothing else most of the time.

If indeed the leaders of the church are perfect then why is there provisions to remove leaders in the church doctrine?
_ldsfaqs
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _ldsfaqs »

Well said Franktalk......
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Wisdom Seeker »

Franktalk wrote:A prophet of God can not lead someone astray. If indeed that man is a prophet and is speaking for God at that moment. Are you saying that a prophet never doubts? Are you saying a prophet never asks a question of God because they don't know? You must realize that the Bible is full of prophets who at one time or another had doubts or questions. In these times where they were seeking answers were they able to be a spokesman for God? In the history of the prophets they lived many years yet their writings only cover a few hours. What of the other time that they were not writing scripture? Would they be a man? And if so could they be weak like a man? Are you telling me that no prophet of God ever had a bad day? A bad week? Or even a bad year? In reading the Bible just how often does a prophet receive a message from God? Oh please look it up. Make a list of times in which they received a message and the times that the Lord was silent. Make a time line. You may be shocked to find out that the prophets were men and nothing else most of the time.

If indeed the leaders of the church are perfect then why is there provisions to remove leaders in the church doctrine?


Primary children are told to "Follow the Prophet" which for me seems to be quite an important aspect to training children to believe that these men are infallible.
_Drifting
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:Make a list of times in which they received a message and the times that the Lord was silent. Make a time line. You may be shocked to find out that the prophets were men and nothing else most of the time.


Frank.
I tell you what - find me an official Church quote that supports your view that Prophets are nothing more than men most of the time.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Drifting
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Re: Mormon Infobia...

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:
Drifting wrote:Wrong again.
I'm talking about communication with Prophets, not men.
I'm not assuming, I'm following the Church teaching that the Prophet cannot lead us astray. If the Prophet cannot be relied upon to receive Christs messages accurately where does that leave the Church?



If indeed the leaders of the church are perfect then why is there provisions to remove leaders in the church doctrine?


Where did I use the word 'perfect'?
The Church (not drifting) has stated that the Prophet will never lead us astray. You seem to want to disagree with that?

You claim that Prophets are mostly mere men and as such can make mistakes in what they do and say. If that is the case how can members rely on their words and deeds as divinely inspired?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
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