The Bottom Line

[_subgenius]

God decides what is good and what is evil. And only God is good. One either agrees with God or imagines he knows what is good --- and satan agrees with what man imagines is good...

Who's God?

spelling -1 (see me after class)

[_Themis]

Not if they are atheists. What do atheists believe?

Atheists are not a well defined group. All they are is people who lack belief in any God. They can be found with very different beliefs about a whole host of things. They can also be found in many religions like Buddhism.

That man designs the laws and chooses what is the right thing at the right time. Of course They also believe what is right now might be wrong later and visa/versa...

Sure man does this. We find man doing it with the Bible, Book of Mormon, Koran, etc.

[_Themis]

Sure groups claim their definition of what is good or bad comes from their God.

this is beside the point...the groups claims are eaily dissected and either validated or not.
What matters is if there is, in fact, anything "good" or "bad".
The idea that good/evil can be reduced to preference for the taste of chocolate over the taste of vanilla is absolutely absurd.
If this is the route you are taking then you would have us believe that good and evil is just a matter of physiological conditioning, that this whole matter relies on the bio-chemical reactions being lugged around in these skin bags we call bodies. If that is your case then you are in for a rude awakening and will likely resist the actual "truth".

Try reading my earlier post where I do say there tends to be basic agreement by most people on certain things. Some of those things would be murder, lying, stealing, etc. Other ones have much less agreement. Sex is a good one, although church's like LDS have changed over time. What we tend to agree on is things that have the best interest of societies success and survival.

by the way it makes no sense for you to pull out the Supernatural aspect when you can't even be consistent with it.

[_subgenius]

We have no indication that there were any babies or children around when the Flood started. Noah had no grandchildren. There is only an assumption of babies for those who are trying to cast a shadow on God's judgment. God's perfect timing may very well have been when only adults were around. So, there you are standing outside of the Ark and the rains begin... What would you say then?

Oh, well because one guy didn't have any grandchildren, that must mean nobody did!!!!! Please list one single time in human history where there haven't been any children on the entire planet, and the garden of eden doesn't count.

babies being present or absent is hardly meaningful to the point. I would be willing to accept that the flood took the lives of babies, pregnant women, cripples, disabled peoples, smart people, and dumb people.....so what?
When a plane crashes and kills people nobody assumes the plane is "evil" and for all we know the plane meant to do it...the plane certainly had the ability to fly...why suddenly did it not? most of the time we find out why...faulty this, faulty that...or "pilot error"...seems like the errant mechanic or slow-witted pilot should be considered evil, correct?
But wait...only when someone "intentionally" crashes a plane do we consider that act "evil" correct? why is that?....is it because the act is not what matters...it is the intention behind the act, correct?
Good pilot gets confused in fog, slams plane into mountain, everyone dies...tragic accident
Good pilot gets angry at fog and intentionally flies plane into mountain, everyone dies....act of evil

so, the "victims" of the flood were deserving, plain and simple...no matter how difficult it is for you to grasp that concept, the fact remains.




as for when people were not around....hmm.....there is that brief time, in human history, before the first humans reached puberty...i would gather there were no babies then. Unless, by your logic, the babies were dropped off the alien spaceship with the other adults who were banished here?

[_just me]

We have no indication that there were any babies or children around when the Flood started. Noah had no grandchildren. There is only an assumption of babies for those who are trying to cast a shadow on God's judgment. God's perfect timing may very well have been when only adults were around. So, there you are standing outside of the Ark and the rains begin... What would you say then?

So, you suppose that all reproduction for all animal life ceased for 3-4 years prior to the Great Deluge? Where do you get that from the Bible?

by the way, I think killing all adults casts a pretty big shadow, too. I try not to be an ageist when it comes to who is being murdered.

[_malkie]

the suggestion that we cannot unequivocally tell what is good is nonsense

on the contrary, it is likely very sensible.
If you are proposing that "good" is merely subjective then it like evil, in fact, does not actually exist in this context. This also must mean that you are amoral (which is a popular atheistic position, out of desperate necessity).
Without an objective "good" there can be no cause for personal responsibility, no cause for justice, nor any cause for Law.

Given that, i would require that you back up your claim that it is indeed "nonsense".

You might like to note that what you attribute to me was my paraphrasing Tobin - take it up with him!

Near the bottom of page 9:

Now, as far as recognizing whether that experience is from God or the Devil - well, that is a matter of recognizing good and evil. We are fully capable of determining the difference between the two. It is essential to our ability to choose between good and evil to have that ability to do so. Otherwise, we are simply unable to choose and there is no free will. And that is why I'm saying the position that we cannot determine the difference is absolutely absurd.

[_LittleNipper]

We have no indication that there were any babies or children around when the Flood started. Noah had no grandchildren. There is only an assumption of babies for those who are trying to cast a shadow on God's judgment. God's perfect timing may very well have been when only adults were around. So, there you are standing outside of the Ark and the rains begin... What would you say then?

So, you suppose that all reproduction for all animal life ceased for 3-4 years prior to the Great Deluge? Where do you get that from the Bible?

by the way, I think killing all adults casts a pretty big shadow, too. I try not to be an ageist when it comes to who is being murdered.

Animals do not possess a spirit.

[_Tobin]

You might like to note that what you attribute to me was my paraphrasing Tobin - take it up with him!

Near the bottom of page 9:

Now, as far as recognizing whether that experience is from God or the Devil - well, that is a matter of recognizing good and evil. We are fully capable of determining the difference between the two. It is essential to our ability to choose between good and evil to have that ability to do so. Otherwise, we are simply unable to choose and there is no free will. And that is why I'm saying the position that we cannot determine the difference is absolutely absurd.

Why should he? We seem to agree. Withouth the ability to choose between good and evil, there can be no choices, no justice, no law, and so on. It's an absurd position to take.

[_LittleNipper]

God decides what is good and what is evil.

totally disagree...i am not so sure that one can assume that God determined the Law, it may be more appropriate to consider that the Law determined God...in other words, God does not decide what is good or evil.

God established the LAW for us. The LAW dosn't exist without God.

[_Themis]

Why should he? We seem to agree. Withouth the ability to choose between good and evil, there can be no choices, no justice, no law, and so on. It's an absurd position to take.

We do have the ability to decide what is good or bad, and can certainly choose which one to follow. I would say everyone will do things they agree are bad at least some of the time.