Don Bradley's Kinderhook Bomb

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
_Aristotle Smith
_Emeritus
Posts: 2136
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:38 pm

Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

George Miller wrote:Hey Patriarchal Gripe- I appreciate your kind words about my work. However, having said that, I think you underestimate the contribution that Don Bradley's work brings to the conversation. To be honest I have been somewhat disheartened by much of the response to Don's presentation.


Actually, I think most of the critics have taken the position that as far as the historical facts, they think Don got it right, or at least will suspend judgment pending further evidence. I myself was profuse in my praise in his historical work. So if this is merely a question of accepting Don's work as historian qua historian, I don't think Don has much to complain about. The critics are not on his case over that.

But the fact remains that Don also wanted this to be an apologetic, which is why he presented it at FAIR. If he had presented his findings at MHA or JWHA, none of this response would have happened, because there would not have been an apologetic aspect to it. Critics have tried to show Don the problems and implications of his apologetic, not his historical work. Don has resolutely refused to talk about this.

George Miller wrote:Don's presentation was indeed an academic game changer with regards to our understanding of the historical events surrounding the Kinderhook Plates episode. Sadly, it seems that everyone else on the field is playing an entirely different sport than Don. While Don is playing professional baseball, the participants on the boards are instead playing wiffle ball.


I think you have this wrong. It was Don who insisted on playing two sports at once: academic baseball and apologetic MMA. He also considers this presentation to have both academic and apologetic aspects. Critics don't have many problems with the former, and Don won't talk about the latter.

George Miller wrote:Watching the response on the boards has been thoroughly disheartening. Almost the only aspect of Don's fascinating discovery that has been discussed is if it has greater value as a pointy stick for apologists or the critics. In the meantime the audience seems completely blind to the wide reaching implications of Don's find and the understanding it can bring to Joseph Smith's religious narrative and how Joseph Smith's mind worked.


The problem most critics have pointed out is that Don's presentation has ignored how Joseph Smith's mind worked. He wants to treat the K-Hook episode as utterly unique, completely unlike any other translation project Joseph Smith engaged in. It was purely scholarly/academic has been the refrain. If Don wants to say this, he has to provide some reasons for doing this. The only reason has been that the facts viewed in the proper light don't require a revelatory explanation in this case. Seen in isolation, this works. As part of the overall pattern of Joseph Smith's translations, it doesn't work at all.

George Miller wrote:Personally, I found Don's work to be solid, intellectually honest, and erudite in its presentation. The implications and the light it sheds on many aspects of the Mormon experience were apparent to me 3 minutes into the presentation with further light incrementally shed throughout the presentation. I just wish both the critics and the apologists would take off their blinders and see the much larger picture that Don's findings reveal.


Again, I see it completely the opposite. Don has wanted to keep the conversations very narrow, while the critics have wanted to explore the larger picture. Time after time Don has said he only wants to focus on the narrow K-Hook episode, and only the historical aspects of that episode.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_George Miller
_Emeritus
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:41 pm

Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _George Miller »

jon wrote:Sadly the 'other' board doesn't accept challenging critics such as myself and so I am unable to view the link.

Is there another way?

Contact me backchannel with your email address and I will be happy to provide you with the information.
_jon
_Emeritus
Posts: 1464
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:15 am

Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _jon »

George Miller wrote:
jon wrote:Sadly the 'other' board doesn't accept challenging critics such as myself and so I am unable to view the link.

Is there another way?

Contact me backchannel with your email address and I will be happy to provide you with the information.

George, that's okay I've managed to view it now.

I'm sorry but I don't agree that the character on the KP is an 'exact' match with the character on GAEL.
The match is only achieved if you remove 4 lines from the KP character.
In effect the match is like saying in GAEL the character is 'I' and it matches the KP where the character is 'E' - to achieve a match you have to remove most of the original character.

Am I correct in that?
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
_Nomad
_Emeritus
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:07 pm

Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _Nomad »

jon wrote:I'm sorry but I don't agree that the character on the KP is an 'exact' match with the character on GAEL.
The match is only achieved if you remove 4 lines from the KP character.
In effect the match is like saying in GAEL the character is 'I' and it matches the KP where the character is 'E' - to achieve a match you have to remove most of the original character.

Am I correct in that?

That's interesting. I just made this post at MDD that makes a similar point: Read here

You better watch out or people are going to start saying that you are a sockpuppet, too.
... she said that she was ready to drive up to Salt Lake City and confront ... Church leaders ... while well armed. The idea was ... dropped ... [because] she didn't have a 12 gauge with her.
-DrW about his friends (Link)
_George Miller
_Emeritus
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:41 pm

Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _George Miller »

jon wrote:I'm sorry but I don't agree that the character on the KP is an 'exact' match with the character on GAEL. The match is only achieved if you remove 4 lines from the KP character. In effect the match is like saying in GAEL the character is 'I' and it matches the KP where the character is 'E' - to achieve a match you have to remove most of the original character.

Hey John, perhaps it will help you understand what is going on with a little bit more perspective. My own findings working with Joseph Smith's conception of the Adamic language, and the Masonic sources from which he was drawing to inform this conception, show that Joseph Smith looked at the Adamic language as both pictographic and phonetic and that the pictographic glyphs could be dissected into parts to ascertain their meaning. According to the Masonic sources from which Joseph Smith drew, the Egyptians in effect stole their writing system from the Adamic, but their system was only pictographic and not phonetic; and following in the model of the Adamic language, dissection of the glyphs would have revealed their meaning.

We know from the GAEL that Joseph Smith dissected the Egyptian characters into their constituent parts to "translate" them as is the case with Chalsidon hi ash / Za ki oan hi ash and Ki ah broam Ki ab brah oam Zub zool oan to produce Abraham 1:1-3 in the GAEL. While I will not discuss it further here, there are other cases where Joseph Smith did this as well to translate Egyptian. This was in part Joseph Smith's modus operandi of translating.

When we look at Joseph Smith's translation method of the Kinderhook Plates, we find exactly the same pattern shown by Joseph Smith in his treatment of both the Adamic and Egyptian languages in that Joseph Smith dissects the KP character into its basic parts. However, in the case of the KP, Joseph Smith has the luxury of simply matching the dissected hieroglyph with already translated hieroglyphs in the GAEL. The hieroglyph that matches most cleanly is that of Ho ee oop hah.

Image

Left character from the KP. Middle dissection of the character on the left. Right character from the GAEL which is associated with Ho ee oop hah.

However, the real clincher comes when we look at the definition provided by the GAEL for the hieroglyph associated with Ho ee oop hah.

William Clayton wrote:Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharoah king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.

GAEL wrote:honor by birth, kingly power by the line of pharoah possession by birth one who riegns upon his throne universally - possessor of heaven and earth, and of the blessings of earth

Note that you have the same four linguistic ideas in the same order in both passages. Given the combined testimony of both friendly and neutral/unfriendly witnesses, it appears fairly clear what Joseph Smith was doing. If Joseph Smith was NOT following this methodology, what do you think would be the chance of Don finding an account which mentions the "Egyptian Alphabet"?

The KP therefore shows a consistent modus operandi in translating from 1835-1843 on three completely different documents. There is even more than this going on, but I will retire from this conversation now so I can get some real work done.

for what it's worth, having worked with the KEP for some time, when Don read Clayton's description of the Joseph Smith's translation, I noticed the language almost immediately and I blurted out something to the effect of, "No Don, your joking me right?" At which point Don made me pipe down and let the others enjoy the ride.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:13 pm, edited 16 times in total.
_jon
_Emeritus
Posts: 1464
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:15 am

Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _jon »

George, let me say that I appreciate your patience with me and the clear way that you articulate complex things with simple language. Thanks.

I get the point.
Joseph had 'form' when it came to breaking characters down into component parts and translating them. This is supported by the written accounts from other people. Got it.

Do you believe that Joseph used this process to 'translate' the Book of Abraham?
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
_George Miller
_Emeritus
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:41 pm

Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _George Miller »

jon wrote:George, let me say that I appreciate your patience with me and the clear way that you articulate complex things with simple language. Thanks.

While you can't access the other board, let me say that the real person you have to thank is Don as I am only following Don's lead.

jon wrote:Do you believe that Joseph used this process to 'translate' the Book of Abraham?

Answering that question is part of an ongoing research project connected to the Mormon-Masonic connection which I am performing jointly with Mike Reed. Sadly I am not as prolific in my writing as Don and his excellent research. I hope you will forgive me if I don't answer your question fully, but given what I have said so far, I think you can see where our evidence is pointing. ;-)

Of course I am only following in the path of those that have gone before me like Chris Smith and his amazing paper in the JWHA journal. If you have not read Chris Smith's piece on the subject then you are missing out.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_jon
_Emeritus
Posts: 1464
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:15 am

Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _jon »

Daniel,

Do you think that Don's findings will, down the line, have an impact on the Book of Abraham's standing as a 'revelatory translation'?
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
Post Reply