Fulfilled Prophecy?

[_Tobin]

I think I detect a pattern here. I believe grindael believes patriarchs are prophets. And since not all patriarchical blessings seem to come true (like when you throw a penny in a wishing well), that definitely proves something. Usually it proves throwing pennies down wishing wells isn't a good idea, but there it is.

Nah, it's not me that thinks so, it was Ezra Taft Benson. I believe he was one of your "prophets".

Psssst, let me fill you in on a little secret to Mormonism. Probably something you missed doing all the slow reading. Mormon prophets are .... you ready for this ... just normal, fallible men with opinions. Honest. Shocking isn't it.

And you know this whole prophet thing, well .... the way it works is see ... God reveals the truth to them, then ... still following? ... God's spirit confirms it with us and then we know it was from God. Otherwise, they are speaking as any other man and expressing their opinions. It's all magic like that. But, I'm sure you don't have time for prophets. One of my favorite prophets was named Martin Luther King Jr. He said a bunch of stuff about racial inequality and was killed for it, but again - you don't believe the truth that comes from prophets and think it is all garbage right?

[_Tobin]

They should have been better people. If they had, they might have made it. We'll never know. Maybe God had in mind for them (if they had been better), something amazing like that. Personally, I would have asked for a free sea-doo or house in the bahamas.

It wouldn't matter for whether they lived or not it still would have happened. And Edward Partridge died as Presiding Bishop of the Church. But if you say he should have been a better person, I'm sure you are in an intimate position to know and judge him.

Still knocking down the patriarchs are prophets thing. It's kind of game of whack a mole to you huh?

[_Tobin]

Not really. It is more an example of grindael's game of let's set up a bunch of straw-men and knock them down over and over again. Wasn't that fun? As I said, not really.

They are only "straw men" to someone that has no way to explain them. Don't be so pouty, you always have the jello.

Hey it's your game. Knock yourself out. It doesn't mean a thing to me (nor would I imagine it would mean a thing to any Mormon at all). But go crazy, by all means.

[Guest]

Psssst, let me fill you in on a little secret to Mormonism. Probably something you missed doing all the slow reading. Mormon prophets are .... you ready for this ... just normal, fallible men with opinions. Honest. Shocking isn't it.

And you know this whole prophet thing, well .... the way it works is see ... God reveals the truth to them, then ... still following? ... God's spirit confirms it with us and then we know it was from God. Otherwise, they are speaking as any other man and expressing their opinions. It's all magic like that. But, I'm sure you don't have time for prophets. One of my favorite prophets was named Martin Luther King Jr. He said a bunch of stuff about racial inequality and was killed for it, but again - you don't believe the truth that comes from prophets and think it is all garbage right?

Hmmm. Joseph Smith said,

Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (1976), 160.)

You speak of straw men, but you use a classic. Anything you don't like or can't explain is just a guy who claims to be a prophet, but when it's time to use his prophetic gift, when he's being counted on to give a valid blessing to someone, he just conveniently has a bad day, is a "fallible man" giving just an "opinion". But if it's something you like, and will make your church look good, well he was a prophet that day. How very convenient.

Oh, and thanks for letting me know that Joseph Smith was a liar.

[_grindael]

Not really. It is more an example of grindael's game of let's set up a bunch of straw-men and knock them down over and over again. Wasn't that fun? As I said, not really.

They are only "straw men" to someone that has no way to explain them. Don't be so pouty, you always have the jello.

Hey it's your game. Knock yourself out. It doesn't mean a thing to me (nor would I imagine it would mean a thing to any Mormon at all). But go crazy, by all means.

But still you keep making comments. Did you get a double dose of jello at your last church function?

[_gdemetz]

Yea Drifting, I saw that, and the meaning is definitely figurative, especially in the light that Joseph saw and bore record of them being separate, and this was nothing new since the Biblical prophets saw the same vision.

[_Tobin]

Not really. It is more an example of grindael's game of let's set up a bunch of straw-men and knock them down over and over again. Wasn't that fun? As I said, not really.

They are only "straw men" to someone that has no way to explain them. Don't be so pouty, you always have the jello.

Hey it's your game. Knock yourself out. It doesn't mean a thing to me (nor would I imagine it would mean a thing to any Mormon at all). But go crazy, by all means.

But still you keep making comments. Did you get a double dose of jello at your last church function?

I'm just playing around with you. As I said, I don't take anything you have to say as a serious criticism of Mormonism at all.

[_Tobin]

Psssst, let me fill you in on a little secret to Mormonism. Probably something you missed doing all the slow reading. Mormon prophets are .... you ready for this ... just normal, fallible men with opinions. Honest. Shocking isn't it.

And you know this whole prophet thing, well .... the way it works is see ... God reveals the truth to them, then ... still following? ... God's spirit confirms it with us and then we know it was from God. Otherwise, they are speaking as any other man and expressing their opinions. It's all magic like that. But, I'm sure you don't have time for prophets. One of my favorite prophets was named Martin Luther King Jr. He said a bunch of stuff about racial inequality and was killed for it, but again - you don't believe the truth that comes from prophets and think it is all garbage right?

Hmmm. Joseph Smith said,

Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (1976), 160.)

You speak of straw men, but you use a classic. Anything you don't like or can't explain is just a guy who claims to be a prophet, but when it's time to use his prophetic gift, when he's being counted on to give a valid blessing to someone, he just conveniently has a bad day, is a "fallible man" giving just an "opinion". But if it's something you like, and will make your church look good, well he was a prophet that day. How very convenient.

Oh, and thanks for letting me know that Joseph Smith was a liar.

Funny how that works, the truth comes from God and God will confirm it. You should read some of Martin Luther King Jr's speeches. Learn to appreciate what prophets have to say sometimes and let the truth pour over you. The education will do you good.

[_grindael]

Who is this man, this patriarch, through whom such seership and priesthood power flow? How is he called? The Council of the Twelve Apostles has special responsibility pertaining to the calling of such men. From my own experience I testify that patriarchs are called of God by prophecy. How else could our Heavenly Father reveal those to whom such prophetic powers are to be given? A patriarch holds an ordained office in the Melchizedek Priesthood. The patriarchal office, however, is one of blessing—not of administration. I have never called a man to this sacred office but what I have felt the Lord’s guiding influence in the decision. (~Thomas Monson, Ensign, Nov 1986, 65)

The patriarchal or evangelical office is one of blessing and not of administration, although all who are so ordained also serve as high priests and as elders. Holders of this ordained office in the Melchizedek Priesthood are appointed to give patriarchal blessings to the saints. These blessings include an inspired declaration of lineage and such prophetic utterances as the Spirit dictates with reference to each person blessed. (Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pp. 351-352)

The office of patriarch is an office of the Melchizedek Priesthood. It is one of blessing, not of administration. It is a sacred and spiritual revelatory calling which usually continues for much of the patriarch's life. Our patriarchs devote themselves fully to their callings and do all they can to live in faith and worthiness so that each blessing is inspired. The patriarch's calling becomes a beautiful, sacred, spiritual, and fulfilling experience. As moved upon by the Holy Spirit, the patriarch declares by inspiration the lineage in the house of Israel of the recipient, together with such blessings, spiritual gifts, promises, advice, admonition, and warnings the patriarch feels inspired to give. The patriarchal blessing is, in essence, a prophetic blessing and utterance. (James E. Faust, "Priesthood Blessings," Ensign, Nov. 1995, 63)

Gee, I don't see how these guys can give all those "prophetic utterances" without being a prophet. Perhaps all the above "authorities" were just having a bad day too?

[_grindael]

How does one give a wrong "prophetic utterance"? Wait for it... only if he's not really inspired.