Fulfilled Prophecy?

[_grindael]

the truth comes from God and God will confirm it

But not through any of the men I quoted above.

[_Tobin]

the truth comes from God and God will confirm it

But not through any of the men I quoted above.

And just how did you determine that? Not any truth what-so-ever huh? So, I'll have to do is produce one truthful statement and your world comes crashing down?

With all my heart and the fervency of my soul, I lift up my voice in testimony as a special witness and declare that God does live. Jesus is His Son, the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. He is our Redeemer; He is our Mediator with the Father. He it was who died on the cross to atone for our sins. He became the firstfruits of the Resurrection. Because He died, all shall live again. ‘Oh, sweet the joy this sentence gives: “I know that my Redeemer lives!” ’ May the whole world know it and live by that knowledge, I humbly pray, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Lord and Savior, amen.

Thomas S Monson

Now, let me guess - you don't believe in Jesus Christ or any of that huh?

[_Tobin]

Who is this man, this patriarch, through whom such seership and priesthood power flow? How is he called? The Council of the Twelve Apostles has special responsibility pertaining to the calling of such men. From my own experience I testify that patriarchs are called of God by prophecy. How else could our Heavenly Father reveal those to whom such prophetic powers are to be given? A patriarch holds an ordained office in the Melchizedek Priesthood. The patriarchal office, however, is one of blessing—not of administration. I have never called a man to this sacred office but what I have felt the Lord’s guiding influence in the decision. (~Thomas Monson, Ensign, Nov 1986, 65)

The patriarchal or evangelical office is one of blessing and not of administration, although all who are so ordained also serve as high priests and as elders. Holders of this ordained office in the Melchizedek Priesthood are appointed to give patriarchal blessings to the saints. These blessings include an inspired declaration of lineage and such prophetic utterances as the Spirit dictates with reference to each person blessed. (Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pp. 351-352)

The office of patriarch is an office of the Melchizedek Priesthood. It is one of blessing, not of administration. It is a sacred and spiritual revelatory calling which usually continues for much of the patriarch's life. Our patriarchs devote themselves fully to their callings and do all they can to live in faith and worthiness so that each blessing is inspired. The patriarch's calling becomes a beautiful, sacred, spiritual, and fulfilling experience. As moved upon by the Holy Spirit, the patriarch declares by inspiration the lineage in the house of Israel of the recipient, together with such blessings, spiritual gifts, promises, advice, admonition, and warnings the patriarch feels inspired to give. The patriarchal blessing is, in essence, a prophetic blessing and utterance. (James E. Faust, "Priesthood Blessings," Ensign, Nov. 1995, 63)

Gee, I don't see how these guys can give all those "prophetic utterances" without being a prophet. Perhaps all the above "authorities" were just having a bad day too?

Yeah, that's nice. I'm bored now. What new game do you have?

[_Tobin]

How does one give a wrong "prophetic utterance"? Wait for it... only if he's not really inspired.

So, what prophetic utterances by MLK Jr do you have a problem with exactly?

[_Drifting]

Tobin, it may help you if you read what the Church teaches about these ordinary, fallible, opinioned men...

As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to be led by living prophets—inspired men called to speak for the Lord, as did Moses, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, Nephi, Mormon, and other prophets of the scriptures. We sustain the President of the Church as prophet, seer, and revelator—the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church. We also sustain the counselors in the First Presidency and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators.

Additional Information
Like the prophets of old, prophets today testify of Jesus Christ and teach His gospel. They make known God's will and true character. They speak boldly and clearly, denouncing sin and warning of its consequences. At times, they may be inspired to prophesy of future events for our benefit.

We can always trust the living prophets. Their teachings reflect the will of the Lord, who declared: “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same” (D&C 1:38).

Our greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church. The Lord warns that those who ignore the words of the living prophets will fall (see D&C 1:14-16). He promises great blessings to those who follow the President of the Church:

(Quote from LDS.org 'Prophets')

[_jo1952]

Hmmm. Joseph Smith said,

Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (1976), 160.)

Hello Grindael,

There are many layers of understanding in the Bible and in all Holy Canon. Likewise, there are many layers of understanding in the above. Actually, here Joseph Smith wasn't teaching anything that had not already been taught in the Bible. Jesus taught us that the Holy Spirit leads us to all Truth. The Holy Spirit does not only teach us through Prophets and Apostles. He also teaches us as individuals. The way He teaches us IS through revelation.

There are many Ministers, Pastors, Bishops, etc., who teach from their pulpits. It has been my experience that not many are teaching with the power of the Holy Spirit; thus, they are not teaching with revelation. They are teaching what they were taught when they went to school to become a Minister, a Pastor, a Bishop, etc.; and those teachings were of man. Unless they have received personal revelation about the Truth of what they are teaching, then they are not teaching with the power of the Holy Spirit; thus, without revelation a.k.a. the spirit of prophecy. They are only teaching, at most, in accordance with someone else's testimony, and there is no spirit of prophecy in them.

Jesus taught His Apostles not to worry about what they should say when spreading the Gospel message. He told them that the Holy Spirit would speak through them. Those who have received a personal witness from the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ can begin their journey of acquiring more and more Truth. This is how a testimony of Jesus grows. Anyone who has personally developed their testimony of Jesus through revealed Truth received by the Holy Spirit has the "spirit of prophecy", and is able to teach others. This does not guaranty that those who hear them teaching will be able to "hear".

Do not confuse the "spirit of prophecy", which is one of the gifts a person can receive from the Holy Spirit, with the "calling" of a Prophet. This is all in the New Testament, though many will not understand it because they do not have the eyes to see and comprehend the teaching.

You speak of straw men, but you use a classic. Anything you don't like or can't explain is just a guy who claims to be a prophet, but when it's time to use his prophetic gift, when he's being counted on to give a valid blessing to someone, he just conveniently has a bad day, is a "fallible man" giving just an "opinion". But if it's something you like, and will make your church look good, well he was a prophet that day. How very convenient.

Oh, and thanks for letting me know that Joseph Smith was a liar.

A Patriarch does have the mantle of that special calling placed upon them when they are ordained. As such, they are endowed with the ability to indeed give blessings which "include an inspired declaration of lineage and such prophetic utterances as the Spirit dictates with reference to each person blessed". Here is something which can help everyone to understand what at first appears to be either a conflict, a falsehood, a strawman, an "off" day (and certainly I do not doubt that because man IS fallible, he can speak in error), if they are able to receive it. The explanation lies in multiple probations (reincarnations) of a spirit. Where a person, such as yourself, sees that a Patriarchal Blessing was unfulfilled, you are only looking at the current incarnation of that spirit in the physical body which it occupied when it received the Blessing. What you cannot see are any future incarnations at which time(s) any unfulfilled prophecies of the Patriarchal Blessing come to fruition.

Blessings,

jo

[_Drifting]

Hmmm. Joseph Smith said,

Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (1976), 160.)

Hello Grindael,

There are many layers of understanding in the Bible and in all Holy Canon. Likewise, there are many layers of understanding in the above. Actually, here Joseph Smith wasn't teaching anything that had not already been taught in the Bible. Jesus taught us that the Holy Spirit leads us to all Truth. The Holy Spirit does not only teach us through Prophets and Apostles. He also teaches us as individuals. The way He teaches us IS through revelation.

I think the issue with this teaching is one of how to determine wether or not it is the Holy Spirit you are feeling.

For instance, members believe(d) that the Holy Spirit has testified to the truthfulness of the following things:
Blacks don't deserve the Priesthood.
Polygamy is the only acceptable form of marriage.
The men, women and children at Mountain Meadows needed to die.
Talks given by Paul H Dunn.
Blood oaths as part of the Temple ceremony.
Etc.

One cannot be sure that one is feeling the actual Holy Ghost until a long time afterwards when the Church pronounces it so; and even then it is subject to change.

[_Tobin]

Tobin, it may help you if you read what the Church teaches about these ordinary, fallible, opinioned men...

As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to be led by living prophets—inspired men called to speak for the Lord, as did Moses, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, Nephi, Mormon, and other prophets of the scriptures. We sustain the President of the Church as prophet, seer, and revelator—the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church. We also sustain the counselors in the First Presidency and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators.

Additional Information
Like the prophets of old, prophets today testify of Jesus Christ and teach His gospel. They make known God's will and true character. They speak boldly and clearly, denouncing sin and warning of its consequences. At times, they may be inspired to prophesy of future events for our benefit.

We can always trust the living prophets. Their teachings reflect the will of the Lord, who declared: “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same” (D&C 1:38).

Our greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church. The Lord warns that those who ignore the words of the living prophets will fall (see D&C 1:14-16). He promises great blessings to those who follow the President of the Church:

(Quote from LDS.org 'Prophets')

SPT

[_Drifting]

SPT

Je ne comprende pas....

[_jo1952]

I think the issue with this teaching is one of how to determine wether or not it is the Holy Spirit you are feeling.

For instance, members believe(d) that the Holy Spirit has testified to the truthfulness of the following things:
Blacks don't deserve the Priesthood.
Polygamy is the only acceptable form of marriage.
The men, women and children at Mountain Meadows needed to die.
Talks given by Paul H Dunn.
Blood oaths as part of the Temple ceremony.
Etc.

Your agenda to continue your deceit is noted.

One cannot be sure that one is feeling the actual Holy Ghost until a long time afterwards when the Church pronounces it so; and even then it is subject to change.

If a person's spirit truly has begun to awaken, they will eventually be able to determine on their own if what they are being told has truly come from God or not. This is a process and does not happen all at once. All of us MUST go through this process of having our spirits awaken to the point where they are completely born of the Spirit BEFORE we can become Exalted. Learning to discern the Holy Spirit is only part of that process. Also, He does not only guides us through influence and subtlety in our daily lives. When He is leading us to all Truth, our spirit's knowledge of that Truth increases. Truth expands and opens our minds and hearts to the very Kingdom of God; Truth is more than a "feeling". Since we are all on our very own personal journey, the amount of Truth we have had revealed to our spirit is different from all others. No two people are at the exact same spot of having the same parts of Truth revealed to their spirit.

Those who depend upon only what Church Leaders tell them are not being awakened; they are depending on the testimony of someone else. Also, they will not have a correct understanding of what Church Leaders are teaching.

Blessings,

jo