The Bottom Line

[_malkie]

...
Again, malkie, your position is we are UNABLE to tell the difference between good and evil. That is what I'm stating is absurd. We certainly do have the ability to tell the difference and MUST have the ability for free will, choice, justice, and so on to make any sense.

My position is that we are UNABLE unequivocally to tell the difference between good and evil.

I did not say that. I said we have the ability to determine what is good and evil. We must be able to choose. People who choose evil don't necessarily do it because they think they are doing evil. They may have convinced themselves they are doing good. But, they have deluded themselves into believing so. That does not mean they did not possess the ability to determine the difference however. You seem to fail again and again to grasp what I'm stating to you.

I guess that the difference between people being UNABLE unequivocally to tell the difference between good and evil and people who have convinced themselves they are doing good. But, they have deluded themselves into believing so means more to you than it does to me.

Can we agree that, for both groups of people, it is possible that they are not able, every time, without fail, to tell the difference between good and evil?

Whether they were ever able to do so is, I think, moot, unless you are saying that the people you are describing really know what the difference is, and have deliberately perverted their sense of good and evil.

If we can return to the case of flying planes into the WTC, and the millions of people in the world who think this was a good act, are you then saying that these people really know that it was evil, but, because of their perversion of their sense of good and evil, have deliberately convinced themselves that it was good?

[_just me]

We have no indication that there were any babies or children around when the Flood started. Noah had no grandchildren. There is only an assumption of babies for those who are trying to cast a shadow on God's judgment. God's perfect timing may very well have been when only adults were around. So, there you are standing outside of the Ark and the rains begin... What would you say then?

I believe that god murdering adults casts a huge shadow on his judgement. Did you not see what I typed? Murdering ANYONE of ANY AGE is disgusting to me. A god that would do so it double disgusting to me.

So, the truth comes out --- you don't care a thing about babies. What concerns you is that anyone could be drowned by God.

This statement makes utterly no sense. Yes, I care about ALL people being killed. A lot of us like to point out the baby killing for maximum effect. Do you really think there were no animal babies? If the flood story is true than god murdered and destroyed all living things (that weren't saved on the ark). That disgusts me.

How about the fact that people die every day from all sorts of diseases and accidents. I suppose that you feel God should do something about that too.

Yep, people dies all the time. It makes me sad when people die untimely deaths. Cancer makes me sad. I am glad that we have scientists working towards finding solutions to many of the things killing humans off early.
Now, if you told me that god was purposefully giving people accidents and disease to kill them I would say that was screwed up.

Well, what exactly do we do for God?

It appears we provide entertainment.

God is the Creator. He brought you into this world and I feel He has every right to take you out of it at His leasure.

Actually, my mother brought me into this world. Do you feel that mothers and fathers have the right to murder their children whenever they feel like it?

Where do you presume that there were babies born right up to the Flood.

Where do you presume there wasn't? Did god magically seal up the wombs of ALL animal life 3 years prior to the flood? Where do you come by that idea? Also, I find the killing of all plant and animal life REGARDLESS OF AGE equally disturbing. I am not an ageist.

What you do to another of God's creation is murder. What God allows is His prerogative ---- He owns everything including us.

So, we are god's slaves. God is a slave owner. I think slavery is immoral.

[_Tobin]

...
Again, malkie, your position is we are UNABLE to tell the difference between good and evil. That is what I'm stating is absurd. We certainly do have the ability to tell the difference and MUST have the ability for free will, choice, justice, and so on to make any sense.

My position is that we are UNABLE unequivocally to tell the difference between good and evil.

I did not say that. I said we have the ability to determine what is good and evil. We must be able to choose. People who choose evil don't necessarily do it because they think they are doing evil. They may have convinced themselves they are doing good. But, they have deluded themselves into believing so. That does not mean they did not possess the ability to determine the difference however. You seem to fail again and again to grasp what I'm stating to you.

I guess that the difference between people being UNABLE unequivocally to tell the difference between good and evil and people who have convinced themselves they are doing good. But, they have deluded themselves into believing so means more to you than it does to me.

Can we agree that, for both groups of people, it is possible that they are not able, every time, without fail, to tell the difference between good and evil?

Whether they were ever able to do so is, I think, moot, unless you are saying that the people you are describing really know what the difference is, and have deliberately perverted their sense of good and evil.

If we can return to the case of flying planes into the WTC, and the millions of people in the world who think this was a good act, are you then saying that these people really know that it was evil, but, because of their perversion of their sense of good and evil, have deliberately convinced themselves that it was good?

I'm saying it can be recognized unequivocally as evil. Simply because a certain individual believes (or group or even society) that doing something evil is actually good does not make it so. I certainly don't believe in moral relavitism. Just because someone has biases, social preconceptions and a whole host of other factors that can distort their view of good and evil does not mean that neither exists and cannot be unequivocally identified. One does not imply the other at all. Our perceptions of what others choose (or base their decision on) does not have any effect on whether or not good and evil can be unequivocably identified and chosen between.

[_just me]

I'm saying it can be recognized unequivocally as evil. Simply because a certain individual believes (or group or even society) that doing something evil is actually good does not make it so. I certainly don't believe in moral relavitism. Just because someone has biases, social preconceptions and a whole host of other factors that can distort their view of good and evil does not mean that neither exists and cannot be unequivocally identified. One does not imply the other at all. Our perceptions of what others choose (or base their decision on) does not have any effect on whether or not good and evil can be unequivocably identified and chosen between.

Can you provide a list of what is and always has been evil throughout all history? I'd be interested.

[_Tobin]

I'm saying it can be recognized unequivocally as evil. Simply because a certain individual believes (or group or even society) that doing something evil is actually good does not make it so. I certainly don't believe in moral relavitism. Just because someone has biases, social preconceptions and a whole host of other factors that can distort their view of good and evil does not mean that neither exists and cannot be unequivocally identified. One does not imply the other at all. Our perceptions of what others choose (or base their decision on) does not have any effect on whether or not good and evil can be unequivocably identified and chosen between.

Can you provide a list of what is and always has been evil throughout all history? I'd be interested.

Doing and choosing what is wicked, morally wrong, bad, harmful, injurious, causing suffering, causing disaster and ruin, being angry, being irritable, and so on and conducting oneself in an imputed and harmful manner.

Why? Do you find any of that appealing and something you would find to be good?

[_PrickKicker]

Doing and choosing what is wicked, morally wrong, bad, harmful, injurious, causing suffering, causing disaster and ruin, being angry, being irritable, and so on and conducting oneself in an imputed and harmful manner.

Why? Do you find any of that appealing and something you would find to be good?

Haha, describing Jehovah the God of the Old Testament.

[_SteelHead]

Define morally wrong.

According to Joseph Smith, what is wrong in one situation is right in another.

[_malkie]

I'm saying it can be recognized unequivocally as evil. Simply because a certain individual believes (or group or even society) that doing something evil is actually good does not make it so. I certainly don't believe in moral relavitism. Just because someone has biases, social preconceptions and a whole host of other factors that can distort their view of good and evil does not mean that neither exists and cannot be unequivocally identified. One does not imply the other at all. Our perceptions of what others choose (or base their decision on) does not have any effect on whether or not good and evil can be unequivocably identified and chosen between.

Can you provide a list of what is and always has been evil throughout all history? I'd be interested.

Doing and choosing what is wicked, morally wrong, bad, harmful, injurious, causing suffering, causing disaster and ruin, being angry, being irritable, and so on and conducting oneself in an imputed and harmful manner.

Why? Do you find any of that appealing and something you would find to be good?

And the winner of the prize for the greatest amount of evil done over the longest period of time is:

God (as recorded in the Old Testament, at least).

[_just me]

Can you provide a list of what is and always has been evil throughout all history? I'd be interested.

Doing and choosing what is wicked,

What is wicked?

morally wrong, bad, harmful,

What is wrong, bad or harmful?

injurious, causing suffering,

Is it evil to cut a person's arm off to save their life? That would be causing injury and suffering. Chemotherapy causes injury and suffering in the hopes of killing cancer cells and saving the life of the patient. Is that evil?

causing disaster and ruin,

Like when my kids pull out a bunch of toys and turn the house into a disaster area? Is that really evil? Or when my kid breaks something or ruins my possessions, is that evil?

being angry, being irritable,

Why are these emotions evil? I certainly do not consider them evil. I do not judge emotions as good vs evil. Anger can be an incredibly useful emotion. If n one got angry about the injustice in the world nothing would change for the better.

and so on and conducting oneself in an imputed and harmful manner.

What would count as an "imputed and harmful manner?"

Why? Do you find any of that appealing and something you would find to be good?

Well, you still haven't really defined the thing except in the case of anger and irritability which I do wholeheartedly disagree with. They are not evil.

[_Tobin]

And the winner of the prize for the greatest amount of evil done over the longest period of time is:

God (as recorded in the Old Testament, at least).

Uh huh. Making baseless assertions and proving your case are two separate things malkie.