DAN VOGEL DISCUSSES THE SPALDING/RIGDON THEORY

[_Uncle Dale]

my husband asked that I provide this web address for Kalifornia Kid:
http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/BookSol4b.htm

he will be back at his computer next week

Plumeria

[_Dan Vogel]

If you think Joseph Smith redacted Rigdon's writing, then why have such an unnecessary and massive conspiracy at all?

One reason the theory is interesting to me is that the Hilton wordprint study does indicate that part of Nephi and part of Alma had different authors. I'm still looking for a decent explanation for that, and the Spalding-Rigdon hypothesis holds out some promise, mostly cause the Hilton study ignores Sidney Rigdon (which seems a curious omission).

-CK

I'm not impressed by word frequencies. At the last Sunstone, Van Hale and a statistician discussed the weaknesses of the methodology, especially on the Book of Mormon. I think it's available on tape or CD.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Interesting... I'd like to get a copy of that, for sure. I can't find it on the Sunstone website, though.

I am aware that wordprints don't tell us about ancient authors, because they rely on words that wouldn't have been present in Hebrew. But Hilton seemed thorough in his application of controls... do you remember any of the critiques that Van Hale and his statistician friend levelled at the Hilton study?

[_marg]

I chose to use Cooper's 1826 Last of the Mohicans found on-line at

http://www.online-literature.com/cooperj/mohicans/

TABULATION OF WORD-STRINGS

- Book of Solomon [Mormon] Text Color Code Legend -

red text = words found in the Cooper and the Book of Mormon

red underlined = word strings common to the Cooper and the Book of Mormon

blue text = words appearing in the Book of Mormon but not in Cooper



And it came to pass that they did set guards over the prisoners of the Lamanites, and did compel them to go forth and bury their dead; yea, and also the dead of the Nephites which were slain; and Moroni placed men over them to guard them while they should perform their labors. And Moroni went to the city of Mulek with Lehi, and took command of the city and gave it unto Lehi. Now behold this Lehi was a man who had been with Moroni in the more part of all his battles; and he was a man like unto Moroni; and they rejoiced in each other's safety; yea, they were beloved by each other, and also beloved by all the people of Nephi.

And it came to pass that after the Lamanites had finished burying their dead, and also the dead of the Nephites, they were marched back into the land Bountiful; and Teancum, by the orders of Moroni, caused that they should commence laboring in digging a ditch round about the land, or the city Bountiful; and he caused that they should build a breastwork of timbers upon the inner bank of the ditch; and they cast up ...

Dan, the following which you underlined as common, do not appear to be common word strings when I reviewed it:

And it came to pass
that they did
over the prisoners
them to go forth
while they should
perform their labors
went to the city of
and took command of the city
man who had been
part of all his battles
and he was a man like
by all the people of
back into the land
by the orders of
or the city
upon the inner

Also the highest number of words in a word string is 3, and they are

went to the ... found 1X in Cooper
command of the " 3X "
man who had 1X
in the more 1X
and he was 4X
in each other's 1X
each other, and 1X
back into the 1X
that they should 1X
bank of the 3X

[_Uncle Dale]

Dan, the following which you underlined as common, do not appear to be common word strings
when I reviewed it:

And it came to pass...

I think Dan was offering a criticism of my single underlining of word-strings --- That problem makes overlapping
discrete strings appear to be longer and more complex than they really are.

For example, neither Spalding nor Cooper actually wrote "and it came to pass" in their fiction. They both did
write shorter word-strings, which, when compared to the Book of Mormon text using single underlining, come
out looking like the authors were duplicating that Book of Mormon clause.

Here is an example from Spalding, of some of his word-string matches with the Book of Mormon, shown in
overlapping red underlining. Where there is an overlap of adjacent word-strings shared with the Book of Mormon,
I have used a double-underline symbol to indicate that overlap:

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/ColorSMS.pdf

Now look at the same color-coded Spalding text in html format, where the double underlining cannot be
replicated, and drops out of the document when it is saved in html format:

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/ColorSMS.htm

I do not know how to correct this problem. Perhaps somebody can tell us how to show double underlining in
web-documents, and then I can fix the problem.

It will take me a few days to get back up to speed, I will check in again later in the week, when I'm a bit
more recovered.

Dale

[_Dan Vogel]

I chose to use Cooper's 1826 Last of the Mohicans found on-line at

http://www.online-literature.com/cooperj/mohicans/

TABULATION OF WORD-STRINGS

- Book of Solomon [Mormon] Text Color Code Legend -

red text = words found in the Cooper and the Book of Mormon

red underlined = word strings common to the Cooper and the Book of Mormon

blue text = words appearing in the Book of Mormon but not in Cooper



And it came to pass that they did set guards over the prisoners of the Lamanites, and did compel them to go forth and bury their dead; yea, and also the dead of the Nephites which were slain; and Moroni placed men over them to guard them while they should perform their labors. And Moroni went to the city of Mulek with Lehi, and took command of the city and gave it unto Lehi. Now behold this Lehi was a man who had been with Moroni in the more part of all his battles; and he was a man like unto Moroni; and they rejoiced in each other's safety; yea, they were beloved by each other, and also beloved by all the people of Nephi.

And it came to pass that after the Lamanites had finished burying their dead, and also the dead of the Nephites, they were marched back into the land Bountiful; and Teancum, by the orders of Moroni, caused that they should commence laboring in digging a ditch round about the land, or the city Bountiful; and he caused that they should build a breastwork of timbers upon the inner bank of the ditch; and they cast up ...

Dan, the following which you underlined as common, do not appear to be common word strings when I reviewed it:

And it came to pass
that they did
over the prisoners
them to go forth
while they should
perform their labors
went to the city of
and took command of the city
man who had been
part of all his battles
and he was a man like
by all the people of
back into the land
by the orders of
or the city
upon the inner

Also the highest number of words in a word string is 3, and they are

went to the ... found 1X in Cooper
command of the " 3X "
man who had 1X
in the more 1X
and he was 4X
in each other's 1X
each other, and 1X
back into the 1X
that they should 1X
bank of the 3X

Now do the same thing with Dale's underlines, and I think you will get the point I was making. Dale's underlines are not one common phrase either, but are several overlapping phrases. Compare my breakdown of Dale's underlines with my breakdown of my underlines.

[_marg]

Now do the same thing with Dale's underlines, and I think you will get the point I was making. Dale's underlines are not one common phrase either, but are several overlapping phrases. Compare my breakdown of Dale's underlines with my breakdown of my underlines.

Well just looking at his first line on this link http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/BookSol0.htm he breaks up " And now...it...came..to pass...that the sons of" , whereas you combined "And it came to pass" as if this was a common word string to both texts. I assumed from that first example, that Dale only underlined words strings common to both ...whereas you don't appear to be doing the same. Can you give me one word string he illustrates as common which is not common to both Book of Mormon and O MS?

[_Uncle Dale]

Dale might try reversing his method by trying to find the Book of Mormon in Spalding.

I think we know what would happen.

There would not only be a fairly even distribution, but much of Spalding's distinctive vocabulary
and phrasing would remain untouched, while the Book of Mormon's (like "and it came to pass" and "the more part")
would not be represented.

Isn't that exactly what I have done?

And what I have said? ----> That the Spaldingish sections of the Book of Mormon are intermixed with biblical vocabulary
and biblical grammatic structures -- and that the themes, phraseology and vocabulary of those same
Spaldingish sections appear in an uneven distribution, without their biblical literary wrappings, in the
Oberlin manuscript?

For example -- I might say today, "Dan has read this message and has disagreed with its writer."
But if I were to place that same sentence into a quasi-scriptural pseudo-history, I might say instead:


"But behold! Dan did read the epistle sent unto him by that wicked man; yea and he hath read the more part
of the words of that evil and designing man; and in his anger he hath waxed most terribly in righteousness
wrath; and it shall come to pass that Dan, even he which hath read those evil words, shall march forth at the
head of his armies unto the isles of the sea; yea and even unto that great and wicked city of Hilo...."


Had there been "a fairly even distribution" of Book of Mormon language reflected in Spalding's writings, but
"Spalding's distinctive vocabulary and phrasing... remain untouched," then my thesis committee would have
stopped me in my studies, after I had spent three solid weeks plotting George Reynolds' Book of Mormon concordance
snippets within the Oberlin manuscript ------ it was the UNEVEN distribution, as indicated on my black & white
Spalding chart, which convinced the professors that I should continue with my research.

Dale

[_avanick]

Hi Dan,
We didn't think the textual analysis method was the best way to go either, so we went at things from a purely historical point of view. Either Rigdon, Cowdery, and Smith did what we claim they did or they didn't. Either they were where we say they were or weren't. We deliberately left grammatical considerations, word-strings, and other various literary trappings out so that we could concentrate on the people we felt were responsible for the bringing forth of what is now known as the Book of Mormon.

From what has been made abundantly, and I might add by Mr. Metcalfe, tersely and at the point of insult, clear, is that if one were to put 20 wordprint analysts to work on the Book of Mormon and Spalding's known works, one would more than likely come up with 20 different interpretations.

By the way, the Roper response is nearly complete, and it will be very interesting to see Mr. Roper's reaction to it.

One other thing: in the future when asking people not to engage in ad hominem attacks, please include Mr. Metcalfe in your admonition, as several of his remarks to Dale were simply uncalled-for.

Art

If you think Joseph Smith redacted Rigdon's writing, then why have such an unnecessary and massive conspiracy at all?

One reason the theory is interesting to me is that the Hilton wordprint study does indicate that part of Nephi and part of Alma had different authors. I'm still looking for a decent explanation for that, and the Spalding-Rigdon hypothesis holds out some promise, mostly cause the Hilton study ignores Sidney Rigdon (which seems a curious omission).

-CK

I'm not impressed by word frequencies. At the last Sunstone, Van Hale and a statistician discussed the weaknesses of the methodology, especially on the Book of Mormon. I think it's available on tape or CD.

[_Uncle Dale]

several of his remarks to Dale were simply uncalled-for.

I'm not bothered by what Brother Brent had to say, or had to imply, concerning myself, Art --- I grew up among
Mormons, Jack Mormons and ex-Mormons and have long since learned how to ignore their sometimes subtle but
always very pointed attacks. In my experience, these people (as well as a few others in the world I've met, such
as the Brahmins of South Asia) tend to imply that those outside of their exclusive ranks are either ignorant or
demonic. At least Brent does not demonize people who disagree with him -- give him credit for that much, Art..

It is the condescending, patronizing "I know you are too ignorant to understand me" kind of personal attacks that
get me flustered -- and when I'm flustered I tend to respond in kind, which only makes the situation worse.

I don't mind folks saying, "Dale, you've obviously studied this stuff, but I think you've reached wrong conclusions."
What I do mind is people saying (or implying), "All you've done has been an utter waste of time; but you are
obviously too stubborn and uninformed to know that you are making an ass of yourself -- your stuff is worthless."

So -- should I apologize to Dan and Brent, for saying they are acting and talking like Mormons?

Perhaps the ones I really ought to apologize to are the Mormons, for stereotyping them in such a negative way.

Uncle Dale