Evidence for Jesus

[_Jersey Girl]

Once again, you have failed to supply any engagement of the statements made to you, GoodK.

Ah man, you must have missed it.

Here you go:

GoodK

No it isn't evidence.

It is a dubious collection of early writings that contradict eachother, promote ideas that were popular at the time, and that don't have a clear author or date.

How do the writings in the New Testament contradict eachother?

You must be kidding. You expect me to lay it all out here?

I doubt you have failed to encounter at least one of the many contradictions in the Old and New Testaments.

Was he crucified on Friday or Sunday Jersey Girl?

Depends on what book you read.

Who was there when he appeared after resurrection?

Depends on what book you read.

You should really know this stuff -- if you've read the Bible.

When you make an assertion, yes I expect you to lay something out here. Slapping up lists without commentary, making assertions about contradictions doesn't constitute engagement of the topic.

I can already tell from your posts that you rely on skeptic sites and have not engaged the material yourself. I've been engaging and engaged by skeptics for years and I know exactly what you're going to present to me before you present it.

The question here is not whether or not I "know this stuff" the question is whether or not you are willing to support your regurgitations of the skeptic material that is the basis for your unsupported assertions.

Let's get a definition of "contradiction" up here before we go on because your "Friday/Saturday" comment no doubt gleaned from a list of Bible "contradictions" isn't a contradiction at all. I'll find one right now.

Ad hominems from a moderator... Tsk Tsk...


Jersey Girl is sounding more and more like Kevin as time goes on...

I KNOW YOU KNOW my friend, which is why I don't feel obligated to supply you with every contradiction that is contained within the Bible.

You present yourself as a seasoned polemicist, yet your ad hominem attack regarding where I get my information is quite amateurish.

Does the New Testament contradict itself on specific details regarding Jesus Christ? Yes or No.
The answer is Yes.

If you want a full treatise on the subject, I am not the one to ask. Might I suggest Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus.


I did lay something out briefly -even though it was off topic and common knowledge - but since you are a moderator here, why not make a new thread regarding contradictions in the New Testament instead of derailing a thread that is clearly demonstrating the lack of evidence for Jesus?

I would gladly participate in that discussion.
(there are now two threads in the Celestial discussing the evidence of Jesus, I wonder why this topic is victim to such frequent derailment....)

Might I also suggest putting the New Testament contradictions thread in the Terrestrial Forum, where your ad hominems belong?

con·tra·dic·tion /ˌkɒntrəˈdɪkʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-truh-dik-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; denial.
3. a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.
4. direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency.
5. a contradictory act, fact, etc.

You see, GoodK? The Friday/Saturday comment doesn't fall into the category of contradiction. You have supplied no discussion regarding "Friday/Saturday" nor have you demonstrated that you've engaged scripture in light of Jewish culture. You simply grab something from a skeptic site (or book) and slap it up here as if it's something new. The skeptic sites that you presumably frequent, make the very same mistakes. There is no in depth research involved, it's superficial material intended to satisify superficial thinkers.


Again, the "Friday/Saturday" comment does not constitute "contradiction".

Got more?

Laughable. Like I said, start a new discussion if you'd like to be discuss the contradictions of the New Testament.

(Jersey Girl also believes that the Old Testament is not wrong in saying the entire Earth was flooded, rather it meant to say it was a local flood) -- just some background information for anyone unfamiliar with Jersey Girl's reverence for the Bible.

Like I said, wake me up when someone has some evidence besides the dubious New Testament for Jesus.

Does Jersey Girl really think the New Testament doesn't contradict itself?

Those are evasions, GoodK. There is no need to begin a new thread, you used "contradictions" as proof that the New Testament isn't reliable. You have yet to supply a contradiction.

[_GoodK]

Those are evasions, GoodK. There is no need to begin a new thread, you used "contradictions" as proof that the New Testament isn't reliable. You have yet to supply a contradiction.

You are ruining this thread, and have now moved on to the second one started by Richard. If the contradictory New Testament is the only evidence for Jesus (which apparently it is) then I am right, there is no evidence for Jesus. The New Testament is not evidence, no matter how bad you want it to be. Even if it was void of contradictions (and other signs it was written without any divine direction) it still wouldn't be sufficient evidence.

It would be as compelling as any other religious text is.

Pointing out that the New Testament is contradictory only goes to show that the already weak evidence is even weaker than some would like to imply.

Go ahead and start a new thread with this theory of yours and see how far you can go with it...

[_Jersey Girl]

Good, while you are at it start a new thread for your newest derailment.

There exists no derailment here, GoodK and no need to start a new thread. You used Bible contradictions as proof as that the New Testament is unreliable as Evidence for Jesus.

If I knew your argument (and if you didn't keep changing it) perhaps I could "engage" to your satisfaction.

In these exchanges, my "argument" hasn't changed. Nice try.

Here is a summary for you and everyone else:

First Jersey Girl wanted to see a list of historians that didn't write about Jesus even though they should have if the New Testament is correct in its claims, so I obliged.

No, that's not what I asked.

Then you decided that it wasn't good enough because some of those listed were alive within a hundred years of Jesus, so I kindly pointed out that the biggest piece of evidence for Jesus was written after he had died. You (smartly) abandoned that logic and moved on to ask me where the New Testament contradicted itself (derailment) and I briefly listed two examples off the top of my head (hoping to silence your derailment and stay on topic) and here we are, with ad hominems and discussing the meaning of contradict. Where is ROP when we need to discuss the meaning of words? ;)

Nope. My request was specific to your own statement. You raised the issue of "contradictions", there exists no "derailment". In response to your "contradiction" I supplied a definition of "contradiction" that proves your evidences do not constitute "contradiction".

Here is number 3:

Move this portion of the discussion to its own thread, contradictions of the New Testament.

You are free to make that request to a moderator, GoodK, however there is no derailment of topic here and I have no reason to start a new thread. You raised the issue of contradictions in the New Testament in order to support your position that the New Testament is unreliable as Evidence for Jesus. When you raise an issue in the context of a topical discussion such as this, you can expect someone to attempt to engage it, in this case me.

Let's see more contradictions that prove the New Testament unreliable as Evidence for Jesus.

[_GoodK]

There exists no derailment here, GoodK and no need to start a new thread. You used Bible contradictions as proof as that the New Testament is unreliable as Evidence for Jesus.

Holy smokes, did I really? Let's just look at what I said:

The New Testament can't even keep from contradicting itself, let alone be trusted as evidence.

Hmmm... care to revise your statement or edit it out? I also said this:

It is a dubious collection of early writings that contradict eachother, promote ideas that were popular at the time, and that don't have a clear author or date.

Your straw man is looking pretty flimsy from here.

Here is a summary for you and everyone else:

First Jersey Girl wanted to see a list of historians that didn't write about Jesus even though they should have if the New Testament is correct in its claims, so I obliged.

No, that's not what I asked.

Really? Your little brother must have been using your computer then....

If we are going to talk about historians, let's talk about the historians that were alive at the time Jesus was supposedly alive and apparently forgot to write about him.

Yes, GoodK! Will you post their names and perhaps a link to their writings or mention of their writings?

Thank you!

Here is number 3:

Move this portion of the discussion to its own thread, contradictions of the New Testament.

You are free to make that request to a moderator, GoodK, however there is no derailment of topic here. You raised the issue of contradictions in the New Testament in order to support your position that the New Testament is unreliable as Evidence for Jesus. When you raise an issue in the context of a topical discussion such as this, you can expect someone to attempt to engage it, in this case me.

Are you not a moderator, or are you too busy beating on straw men, using ad hominems and red herrings?

[_Jersey Girl]

Here is the onset of these recent exchanges, GoodK:

GoodK: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:37 pm

The New Testament can't even keep from contradicting itself, let alone be trusted as evidence.


GoodK: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:17 pm

No it isn't evidence.

It is a dubious collection of early writings that contradict eachother, promote ideas that were popular at the time, and that don't have a clear author or date.

Jersey Girl:Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:15 am
How do the writings in the New Testament contradict eachother?

GoodK: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:53 am
You must be kidding. You expect me to lay it all out here?

I doubt you have failed to encounter at least one of the many contradictions in the Old and New Testaments.

Was he crucified on Friday or Sunday Jersey Girl?

Depends on what book you read.

Who was there when he appeared after resurrection?

Depends on what book you read.

You should really know this stuff -- if you've read the Bible.

My answer once again, is yes, when you make assertions within the context of topical discussion, in this case Evidence for Jesus, I do expect you to back them up with evidences when asked. Otherwise you are left to arguing "truth by assertion".

I have given you a series of definitions for "contradiction". I'd like to see any evidences you have of New Testament contradictions that fit that definition.

And once again...there is no derailment here, GoodK. You raised the issue.

[_GoodK]

And once again...there is no derailment here, GoodK. You raised the issue.

It's clear to anyone who can read that you are now backpeddling away from your previous post. I provided some good examples of our "exchange".

I don't see what the big deal is, if you want to discuss the many, many flaws in what is known as the Bible, I'm down like a clown, Charlie Brown.

I'll keep my eyes out for a new thread (in one of the lower kingdoms, of course, because ad hominems aren't allowed here)

[_Jersey Girl]

Very sloppy reporting, GoodK.

GoodK: Here is a summary for you and everyone else:

First Jersey Girl wanted to see a list of historians that didn't write about Jesus even though they should have if the New Testament is correct in its claims, so I obliged.

Jersey Girl: No, that's not what I asked.

GoodK:

Really? Your little brother must have been using your computer then....

Who is using yours, GoodK? Do you read what you write? You go on to repost the following:

GoodK: If we are going to talk about historians, let's talk about the historians that were alive at the time Jesus was supposedly alive and apparently forgot to write about him.

And I took you up on your invitation:

Yes, GoodK! Will you post their names and perhaps a link to their writings or mention of their writings?

Thank you!

The problem here, GoodK is that in your reposting, you neglected to repost the following:

GoodK: Then you decided that it wasn't good enough because some of those listed were alive within a hundred years of Jesus, so I kindly pointed out that the biggest piece of evidence for Jesus was written after he had died. You (smartly) abandoned that logic and moved on to ask me where the New Testament contradicted itself (derailment) and I briefly listed two examples off the top of my head (hoping to silence your derailment and stay on topic) and here we are, with ad hominems and discussing the meaning of contradict. Where is ROP when we need to discuss the meaning of words? ;)

Jersey Girl: Nope. My request was specific to your own statement

You see, GoodK, you offer the invitation and when I asked you for a list and mention of their writings, what you did was give a list not of "the historians that were alive at the time Jesus was supposedly alive and apparently forgot to write about him." but of a list of historians within a 100 years time frame.

On what basis did you offer the invitation and expect no one to accept it?

I've already addressed the remainder of your new post. You:

Claim the thread is derailed
Want a new thread
Compare Jersey Girl to Kevin
Blather something about the Flood Story

You've done everything except engage the issues that you yourself raised.

[_marg]

con·tra·dic·tion /ˌkɒntrəˈdɪkʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-truh-dik-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; denial.
3. a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.
4. direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency.
5. a contradictory act, fact, etc.

You see, GoodK? The Friday/Saturday comment doesn't fall into the category of contradiction. You have supplied no discussion regarding "Friday/Saturday" nor have you demonstrated that you've engaged scripture in light of Jewish culture. You simply grab something from a skeptic site (or book) and slap it up here as if it's something new. The skeptic sites that you presumably frequent, make the very same mistakes. There is no in depth research involved, it's superficial material intended to satisify superficial thinkers.


Again, the "Friday/Saturday" comment does not constitute "contradiction".

Got more?

According to the course by Ehrman I mentioned previously it appears to me there is a contradiction on this.

In Mark the day before his arrest Jesus gives disciples instructions for preparation of Passover meal, it is prepared, they eat it at night, next morning Jesus taken away and crucified @ 9 am

In John, he was taken away and tried the day of preparation of passover meal and executed before the meal even began.

The accounts contradict one another. The same execution can not occur on different days, that is logically incongruous.

[_Jersey Girl]

And once again...there is no derailment here, GoodK. You raised the issue.

It's clear to anyone who can read that you are now backpeddling away from your previous post. I provided some good examples of our "exchange".

I don't see what the big deal is, if you want to discuss the many, many flaws in what is known as the Bible, I'm down like a clown, Charlie Brown.

I'll keep my eyes out for a new thread (in one of the lower kingdoms, of course, because ad hominems aren't allowed here)

What's clear GoodK, is that you are unable or unwilling to engage the issues that you yourself raised in a discussion of Evidence for Jesus. The "big deal" is that this is a topical discussion and you fail to engage the topic. By all means, keep your eye out wherever you wish and feel free to report my posts here to any moderator of your choice. I've already asked the mods to review my posts and you?

[_marg]

When I asked earlier in the thread for evidence of challenge of the New Testament stories the answer I got (and always get) is that there are none.

Jersey Girl, In what time frame during or after Jesus's death would you expect challenges to exist, what would they be challenging, and from whom (I don't mean specifically, I mean generally)?

I asked you this question previously. Could you please answer this. I don't understand why you think there should have been challenges in the first place. As I said, what would anyone be challenging and if so when.