Spirituality or just emotion...?

[_Franktalk]

Those who are fully awake are awake and aware outside of the dreams that arise. They watch dreams arise and can enter into them as one might walk into a room in the physical, and interact in the dream with the characters of the dream, all the while knowing that dreams are only temporary phenomenon. They leave a dream according to their desire, and can watch the dream fall back into the place from which it arose.

Sheryl

The dream state you speak of probably is more than night dreams. In night dreams I know I am in a dream and can at my will change anything. Or I can drop into the dream and just let it happen. The state of casting off the world can be viewed as a dream state. One just removes oneself from the world in the mind. The body never leaves but that is due to our current limits. If some just knew more about the mechanics of the spirit world I am sure that some could move mountains and cast them into the sea. I have not tried to develop these abilities because I know that is not why we are here. It is like talking to the dead. It can be done but we are not supposed to do it. I accept the rules from God and trust that all of them have a purpose that I may never find in this life. So I seek what I can.

Frank

[_jo1952]

Those who are fully awake are awake and aware outside of the dreams that arise. They watch dreams arise and can enter into them as one might walk into a room in the physical, and interact in the dream with the characters of the dream, all the while knowing that dreams are only temporary phenomenon. They leave a dream according to their desire, and can watch the dream fall back into the place from which it arose.

Somewhere in the process, as we awaken in our dreams, we might realize in the middle of a dream that it is not real, that we are dreaming and be able to physically wake up, or simply leave the dream causing the dream to dissolve.

The dreams from those fully asleep arise from the subconscious, the person most often being a 'victim' of their dreams, thinking they are real. And struggle in the dream or enjoy the dream just as they would physical life.

Those who are awakening soon see that the physical world is also like a dream arising, for all that actually exists is the present moment. The past is like a dream, as is the future. And in the liberation process, we wake up in the physical world, no longer being a 'victim' of what arises, but able to live fully according to our free will.

Hi Sheryl!

I have experienced, in my spiritual awakening in the physical world, that at times I am much more able to recognize the physical as a dream. However, there are still times when this knowledge does not prevent me from being effected by the physical; and I slip back to the point of needing healing from my experiences. I have discerned that this happens when my own free will is being removed from me by others who have the power to take it from me. It seems the more I learn this, the more painful the removal of my free will is...so I fall further than the previous time; and the healing takes longer and is a very painful process. Yet, due to my understanding, the application of my knowledge eventually--through the process of healing--I become more able to love a litte more perfectly than previously. Does this make sense??

Those who do not have the faith to seek to see for themselves, demand that others prove the existence of a this greater reality that they speak of witnessing, often asking for signs of the miracles being claimed etc. If one cannot see for themselves, they will ask others who can see to prove what they claim to see.

Where would you place Daniel? I am reminded of his ability to interpret Nebudchenezer's (sp?) dream. Now, Daniel needed and sought God's help to interpret the dream. Are there "levels" within the "Masters"? Daniel, like John, were known as "beloved" of God - and both were able to see the future to the point of the end times. I believe that John never died -- perhaps what is meant by what is taught in the Bible that he is one of the higher level of masters as you have described.

Again, faith in a greater reality than what they presently experience, a faith that compels them to experience it themselves.

An interesting way to describe what I have seen happening to myself and a very few others.

Because as I awaken, what I see and experience is just what those fully awake speak of in regards to this greater reality. As our soul evolves, it reaches a point where it knows there is more - an inner knowing of more than what is experienced compels them to seek to see and experience more. Faith is belief in the experience not yet had, having had seen enough, know there is more.

It appears to me that, at least at a level of understanding, this is possible to experience with only the help and guidance of the Holy Ghost; i.e., in the absence of the guidance of a living Master.

It is like the blind man in the cave. The seeing man comes into the cave and tells them about the sun and though still blind they allow the seeing man to guide them outside of the cave, and there while still blind and not able to see the sun for themselves, they feel its warmth, just as the seeing man described, and then believe, and in faith seek to have their eyes opened so that they might see the source of warmth for themselves.

Those in the cave demanding proof will not allow the seeing man to guide them outside of the cave, but demand that the seeing man bring proof of the sun into the cave.

Indeed, I believe that whatever it is man is seeking---be it physical proof or spiritual awareness---that this is what God will allow them to "find". If they are stuck in the physical and deny the spiritual, God will honor their desire, as this is in keeping with God NOT interferring with our free will.

May all beings hunger for the sun they have felt but not yet seen!

Sheryl

Shalom, my dear friend!!

Love,

jo

[_sheryl]

The dream state you speak of probably is more than night dreams. In night dreams I know I am in a dream and can at my will change anything. Or I can drop into the dream and just let it happen. The state of casting off the world can be viewed as a dream state. One just removes oneself from the world in the mind. The body never leaves but that is due to our current limits. If some just knew more about the mechanics of the spirit world I am sure that some could move mountains and cast them into the sea. I have not tried to develop these abilities because I know that is not why we are here. It is like talking to the dead. It can be done but we are not supposed to do it. I accept the rules from God and trust that all of them have a purpose that I may never find in this life. So I seek what I can.

Frank

Hi Frank!

It is taught by Masters that night dreams and daytime are very closely related, thus our ability to awaken in a night dream and/or cast if off is very closely related to being able to awake within the daytime dream.

Masters of various traditions thus teach Be passersby and When a sage walks, he leaves no footprints. These are speaking to what is called non-attachment, meaning we do not walk through this world seeking for ourself, but walk through this world seeking to help others. Anytime we get stuck needing, or fearing, or desiring, not able to just let these feelings arise and fall back from where they arose, we are entangled in the daytime dream, and thus not free.

Thus we are not a 'house of prayer.'

This state of non-attachment, or lack of desire and aversion for self alone, or self-grasping, creates within us a state of purity, a house of prayer, that is filled with the Holy Spirit, and a vehicle for the Light and Presence and Power needed for the healing and salvation of others.

Shalom!

Sheryl

[_sheryl]

Hi Sheryl!

Hi Jo!

I have experienced, in my spiritual awakening in the physical world, that at times I am much more able to recognize the physical as a dream. However, there are still times when this knowledge does not prevent me from being effected by the physical; and I slip back to the point of needing healing from my experiences. I have discerned that this happens when my own free will is being removed from me by others who have the power to take it from me. It seems the more I learn this, the more painful the removal of my free will is...so I fall further than the previous time; and the healing takes longer and is a very painful process. Yet, due to my understanding, the application of my knowledge eventually--through the process of healing--I become more able to love a litte more perfectly than previously. Does this make sense??

Yes! It does.

And we must remember who the enemy is - the dominions and principalities of evil in the heavenly places, not persons. And thus it is not that others take our power, but that we give our power to these spirit beings. They are the ones who are draining us, putting us in bondage.

We give these spirit beings our power, our energy, when we place ourselves in bondage to the past, projecting a past situation or how we perceived a past situation, onto a present situation. And in placing ourselves in bondage to the past, we are giving our power and our energy to the past. It is our deep feelings of lack and unworthiness that keep us in bondage to hurtful situations in the past, all of us, instead of being able to simply enjoy the present.

This my friend is something we all do to some extent or the other.

An interesting way to describe what I have seen happening to myself and a very few others.

It appears to me that, at least at a level of understanding, this is possible to experience with only the help and guidance of the Holy Ghost; i.e., in the absence of the guidance of a living Master.

Yes, the Holy Ghost is what guides us in healing. For until we are healed, able to live solely in the present without past wounds being touched and distorting the present, we are not able to engage in a sacred friendship with a Master. The Holy Ghost is busy healing us according to the Law, and when we are ready, a Master will appear. If not this life, then eventually in some life. It is important to walk in faith, knowing that God is in charge of everything. The more we are able to trust, the greater healing we are able to receive. Your faith has healed you. Jesus

Indeed, I believe that whatever it is man is seeking---be it physical proof or spiritual awareness---that this is what God will allow them to "find". If they are stuck in the physical and deny the spiritual, God will honor their desire, as this is in keeping with God NOT interferring with our free will.

Yes! And the Law is designed to purify us, purifying our desires, so that eventually, our one true desire for God is all that manifests in us and through us.

Shalom, my dear friend!!

Love,

jo

Much love and peace to you, my friend.

Sheryl

[_Themis]

Those who are fully awake are awake and aware outside of the dreams that arise. They watch dreams arise and can enter into them as one might walk into a room in the physical, and interact in the dream with the characters of the dream, all the while knowing that dreams are only temporary phenomenon. They leave a dream according to their desire, and can watch the dream fall back into the place from which it arose.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I am not seeing anything that would lead me to believe this is more then feelings of certainty or knowledge. That is not the way I am using the word know.

Those who are awakening soon see that the physical world is also like a dream arising, for all that actually exists is the present moment.

I can understand why some might feel this way if the are lucid dreaming.

Those who do not have the faith to seek to see for themselves, demand that others prove the existence of a this greater reality that they speak of witnessing, often asking for signs of the miracles being claimed etc. If one cannot see for themselves, they will ask others who can see to prove what they claim to see.

You are still avoiding the question about which faith. I can only assume you only mean having faith in your claims and beliefs. People have faith in many things.

Do you think one can have the same experience as another and come away with very different interpretations of the expereince.

Again, faith in a greater reality than what they presently experience, a faith that compels them to experience it themselves.

I suppose one may feel it is a greater reality in lucid dreaming where one can control the dream and do some amazing things. I am just not sure it should be called reality. That does not mean what I perceive in my waking hours is how things really are, but it does work.

Because as I awaken, what I see and experience is just what those fully awake speak of in regards to this greater reality. As our soul evolves, it reaches a point where it knows there is more - an inner knowing of more than what is experienced compels them to seek to see and experience more. Faith is belief in the experience not yet had, having had seen enough, know there is more.

Again evidnece you are using the word know as a feeling. I am not against seeking or experiencing as much as we can though. I would be more careful about what I feel I know about the experience as it relates to reality(things as they really are).

[_Themis]

Indeed, I believe that whatever it is man is seeking---be it physical proof or spiritual awareness---that this is what God will allow them to "find". If they are stuck in the physical and deny the spiritual, God will honor their desire, as this is in keeping with God NOT interferring with our free will.

I seek the spiritual as a LDS believer and as a former believer in LDS claims. It does not seem to matter how many times we say it, but very few if any are denying the spiritual, just disagreeing with your interpretation of it. That we can also call in physical evidence against your interpretation just means it has much less chance of being true.

[_jo1952]

I seek the spiritual as a LDS believer and as a former believer in LDS claims. It does not seem to matter how many times we say it, but very few if any are denying the spiritual, just disagreeing with your interpretation of it. That we can also call in physical evidence against your interpretation just means it has much less chance of being true.

Yet spiritual things can only be discerned spiritually; therefore, they cannot be discerned physically. Most of us desire that what is physical will prove something spiritual. But this is entirely backwards. I offer that what is "true" for those who see things physically and seek for proof through the physical world, are not controlling their dreams as being described by Sheryl. Rather, their dreams are controlling them. Thus, their truth is not Truth which they have received from the Holy Ghost, as the Holy Ghost is the only witness for spiritual Truth while we are in this physical realm.

Love,

jo

[Guest]

I am not saying you are wrong, but I am not seeing anything that would lead me to believe this is more then feelings of certainty or knowledge. That is not the way I am using the word know.

Hello Themis!

Sounds as though you are inspiring a philosophical discussion on knowing! ;)

I offer that knowing and feeling/emotion/desire are very much interrelated, interconnected.

How can one gain knowledge unless they desire to know? How can one remember unless there is a desire? How can one then access and recall memories of what is known without feeling?

Perhaps it is emotion that is getting the short end of the stick here? Perhaps you think of emotion as only being sad or happy or angry or jealous? If you take a journey through the online dictionaries, you will find that emotion is something much more:

A natural instinctive state of mind deriving from one's circumstances, mood, or relationships with others.

A psychological state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort and is sometimes accompanied by physiological changes; a feeling.

A state of mental agitation or disturbance.

The part of the consciousness that involves feeling; sensibility.

As you can see, it is difficult to define emotion without speaking of thinking, the mind or mental activity, just as one cannot define knowing without feeling. I offer that feeling or emotion refers to how something feels to us. The response in our vital or emotional body that is engendered. We might learn something but if it does not feel true we will not call it knowledge. We will not accept something as knowledge unless it feels right, and same with our expression of knowledge, it must feel right

I can understand why some might feel this way if the are lucid dreaming.
You are still avoiding the question about which faith. I can only assume you only mean having faith in your claims and beliefs. People have faith in many things.

I would define faith as trust. We trust our knowing, we trust our feeling, we trust our memory, we trust others and their knowing feeling and/or memory. And faith is very much an emotion, or feeling. How can we know without faith that we know? Without trust in what we have learned or experienced?

We can glean knowledge through reading or listening, but that is just mental concepts and I would offer is not true knowledge. The real ways of gaining knowledge are through witnessing and/or experiencing. As far as spiritual knowledge, this is gained through experiencing. Angels can appear to us and tell us things, but this is not true knowing. Being told about something or reading about something is not true knowledge, whether the information comes from books, or from a spiritual presence.

And how can there be any knowledge without faith, without trust in what we saw or experienced?

Do you think one can have the same experience as another and come away with very different interpretations of the experience.

Yes. In fact there are as many ways to see and understand as there are people who can see and understand. We are each unique, with unique paths and perspectives. The early church understood this and allowed each person to determine their own beliefs and so we had many different home churches rising up, all with unique ideas and perceptions about God. It wasn't until blind, ignorant, men hungry for power got involved in Christianity and decided that to hold the power, they had to have control over what everyone thought and believed, that doctrines and dogmas were born. All of men who were spiritually blind.

I suppose one may feel it is a greater reality in lucid dreaming where one can control the dream and do some amazing things. I am just not sure it should be called reality. That does not mean what I perceive in my waking hours is how things really are, but it does work.

It is the way we have been programmed, to believe a dream acted out in physical bodies is more real than a dream acted out in spiritual images. I offer that the past is no different than a dream had last night. It is we who make it different, with our guilt and fears from the past, bringing the past into the present with our wounded-ness. At night our dreams are a radiant display of our own minds - the more expansive and spacious our mind, the more that will be included in its radiant display. Daytime is a collective radiant display of the collective mind of humanity. There is nothing in this world that is real except that we make it real. Think about it. Who decides how things really are? We say that if someone does not agree with the masses, they are insane. Perhaps it is the masses who are insane! ;) I offer that how things really are is by collective agreement. We all have a role in creating this collective dream. Think about the potential here in time and space, and what could be. What is is what we make it. And we can make this place, this reality, to be anything. The potential is unlimited.

Again evidnece you are using the word know as a feeling. I am not against seeking or experiencing as much as we can though. I would be more careful about what I feel I know about the experience as it relates to reality(things as they really are).

As shared, I offer that the error is using the word know separate from any feelings.

Knowledge remains in the mental body, being of no help to anyone here if it does not enter into the physical through the emotional or vital body.

I am not the only one who has this model for humanity. It is pretty common knowledge among the wisdom spiritual traditions - those led by a Master.

Thus feeling and knowledge cannot be separated. Knowledge enters into the physical realm through our emotional or feeling bodies. If knowledge is just in our head as mental concepts, stuff we think about without any emotional or feeling or belief, what good is it? Knowledge is only useful in this world when it enters in and it can only enter in through the vital or emotional body. There is no way to access knowledge and express it in this world without feeling.

Shalom.

Sheryl

[_jo1952]

Hello Themis!

Sounds as though you are inspiring a philosophical discussion on knowing! ;)

I offer that knowing and feeling/emotion/desire are very much interrelated, interconnected.

How can one gain knowledge unless they desire to know? How can one remember unless there is a desire? How can one then access and recall memories of what is known without feeling?

Perhaps it is emotion that is getting the short end of the stick here? Perhaps you think of emotion as only being sad or happy or angry or jealous? If you take a journey through the online dictionaries, you will find that emotion is something much more:

A natural instinctive state of mind deriving from one's circumstances, mood, or relationships with others.

A psychological state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort and is sometimes accompanied by physiological changes; a feeling.

A state of mental agitation or disturbance.

The part of the consciousness that involves feeling; sensibility.

As you can see, it is difficult to define emotion without speaking of thinking, the mind or mental activity, just as one cannot define knowing without feeling. I offer that feeling or emotion refers to how something feels to us. The response in our vital or emotional body that is engendered. We might learn something but if it does not feel true we will not call it knowledge. We will not accept something as knowledge unless it feels right, and same with our expression of knowledge, it must feel right

I would define faith as trust. We trust our knowing, we trust our feeling, we trust our memory, we trust others and their knowing feeling and/or memory. And faith is very much an emotion, or feeling. How can we know without faith that we know? Without trust in what we have learned or experienced?

We can glean knowledge through reading or listening, but that is just mental concepts and I would offer is not true knowledge. The real ways of gaining knowledge are through witnessing and/or experiencing. As far as spiritual knowledge, this is gained through experiencing. Angels can appear to us and tell us things, but this is not true knowing. Being told about something or reading about something is not true knowledge, whether the information comes from books, or from a spiritual presence.

And how can there be any knowledge without faith, without trust in what we saw or experienced?

Yes. In fact there are as many ways to see and understand as there are people who can see and understand. We are each unique, with unique paths and perspectives. The early church understood this and allowed each person to determine their own beliefs and so we had many different home churches rising up, all with unique ideas and perceptions about God. It wasn't until blind, ignorant, men hungry for power got involved in Christianity and decided that to hold the power, they had to have control over what everyone thought and believed. Thus, doctrines and dogmas were born, All of men who were spiritually blind.

It is the way we have been programmed to believe a dream acted out in physical bodies is more real than a dream acted out in spiritual images. I offer that the past is no different than a dream had last night. It is we who make it different, with our guilt and fears from the past, bringing the past into the future with our wounded-ness. At night our dreams are a radiant display of our own minds - the more expansive and spacious our mind, the more that will be included in its radiant display. Daytime is a collective radiant display of the collective mind of humanity. There is nothing in this world that is real except that we make it real. Think about it. Who decides how things really are? We say that if someone does not agree with the masses, they are insane. Perhaps it is the masses who are insane! ;) I offer that how things really are is by collective agreement. We all have a role in creating this collective dream. Think about the potential here in time and space, and what could be. What is is what we make it. And we can make this place, this reality, to be anything. The potential is unlimited.

As shared, I offer that the error is using the word know separate from any feelings.

Knowledge remains in the mental body, being of no help to anyone here if it does not enter into the physical through the emotional or vital body.

I am not the only one who has this model for humanity. It is pretty common knowledge among the wisdom spiritual traditions - those led by a Master.

Thus feeling and knowledge cannot be separated. Knowledge enters into the physical realm through our emotional or feeling bodies. If knowledge is just in our head as mental concepts, stuff we think about without any emotional or feeling or belief, what good is it? Knowledge is only useful in this world when it enters in and it can only enter in through the vital or emotional body. There is no way to access knowledge and express it in this world without feeling.

Shalom.

Sheryl

Wow, Sheryl!! Yet another most awesome post!

Shalom,

jo

[_Themis]

Hello Themis!

Sounds as though you are inspiring a philosophical discussion on knowing! ;)

I offer that knowing and feeling/emotion/desire are very much interrelated, interconnected.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/knowledge

I think you are going for number 4. I tend to go for some of the other ones.

How can one gain knowledge unless they desire to know?

Lots of knowledge comes whether we want it or not. Just ask someone who is sent to jail.

How can one remember unless there is a desire? How can one then access and recall memories of what is known without feeling?

See above.

Perhaps it is emotion that is getting the short end of the stick here? Perhaps you think of emotion as only being sad or happy or angry or jealous? If you take a journey through the online dictionaries, you will find that emotion is something much more:

I think emotions can be quite complex, just as our brains are complex. This is why the spiritual experience may just be the creation of our minds. I am not suggesting that our thinking is separate from our emotions.

I would define faith as trust. We trust our knowing, we trust our feeling, we trust our memory, we trust others and their knowing feeling and/or memory. And faith is very much an emotion, or feeling. How can we know without faith that we know? Without trust in what we have learned or experienced?

Trust is a good description, but on many things we do not need to trust or have faith. We can find out for ourselves. Certainly many things I will have faith that they are true, but they tend to be things not that important to believe one way or the other. I can have faith the church is what it claims to be or I can look at the evidence and see if it supports it or not. The evidence clearly does not, so it is very unlikely that the church is what it claims to be. Now I cannot know this in an absolute way, and I am comfortable with that. I am not interested in some God who is going to punish those who think and reason over those who just have faith.

We can glean knowledge through reading or listening, but that is just mental concepts and I would offer is not true knowledge. The real ways of gaining knowledge are through witnessing and/or experiencing.

The are interrelated. One can test a scientific theory they are learning by testing it, which is witnessing and experiencing it.

As far as spiritual knowledge, this is gained through experiencing. Angels can appear to us and tell us things, but this is not true knowing. Being told about something or reading about something is not true knowledge, whether the information comes from books, or from a spiritual presence.

We certainly do not define knowing the same.

And how can there be any knowledge without faith, without trust in what we saw or experienced?

Certainly we have to truat that our physical senses are showing us things that are somewhat accurate as to how they really are. This is why the physical sense are superior in this regard to the internal spiritual experience.

Yes. In fact there are as many ways to see and understand as there are people who can see and understand. We are each unique, with unique paths and perspectives. The early church understood this and allowed each person to determine their own beliefs and so we had many different home churches rising up, all with unique ideas and perceptions about God. It wasn't until blind, ignorant, men hungry for power got involved in Christianity and decided that to hold the power, they had to have control over what everyone thought and believed, that doctrines and dogmas were born. All of men who were spiritually blind.

This is why shared experiences are better then internal ones in regards to knowing how things most likely are. I don;'t think you or I have any idea of early Christianity and what they may have thought and believed.

It is the way we have been programmed, to believe a dream acted out in physical bodies is more real than a dream acted out in spiritual images. I offer that the past is no different than a dream had last night.

I agree on your past is no different then a dream last night. This again is why shared expereinces are superior here.

I suppose one may feel it is a greater reality in lucid dreaming where one can control the dream and do some amazing things. I am just not sure it should be called reality. That does not mean what I perceive in my waking hours is how things really are, but it does work.

There is nothing in this world that is real except that we make it real.

I can say this is certainly not correct. If true then this would be a very different world.

Think about it. Who decides how things really are?

No one. We experience and test to see what works, the idea being that what works is probably a good enough representation of things as they really are. I try try all I want to believe I can fly, but I hope you don't think it a good idea to try flying off a cliff. :)

We say that if someone does not agree with the masses, they are insane. Perhaps it is the masses who are insane! ;)

Not really. It usually depends on how they act as well. If someone says they saw an angel, I don't necessarily think they are insane any more then someone who says they were abducted by aliens. Many things could explain their expereince that don't involve seeing real angels or aliens, or they could really have seen that angel/alien.

I offer that how things really are is by collective agreement.

I think reality is Independent of what we think or perceive.